Space shuttle test reveals 'smoking gun' in disaster

Washington Post via Austin American Statesman ^ | 7-8-03 | Kathy Sawyer

[RightWhale]

There are no economics in it....

No, not in Mars itself, or the moon itself. The economic effect will occur on earth. We are beyond scarcity. Our automated factories and farms produce all we physically need. But the economic impact of going to Mars, moreso than to the moon, is that we will have to gear up considerably to support such an effort. This means significant jobs in direct government tax-supported positions, but also means support jobs in new communities by whatever ratio these normally occur, 5 to 1 or whatever. The government primes the pump, the citizens build homes, schools, fix cars, rent movies, sell clothes, generally engage in commerce. The exloration of Mars would also draw the bright youth from what used to be called the Third World and is now called the Gap, thereby would promote peace in those regions and add to our considerable wealth and reputation and therefore encourage international trade to our benefit. Mars itself is nothing; Mars as a program is huge.

[from occupied ga]

I think someone has already said this here, but one of the great things about the human race is we don't base every decision on economics.

As long as you're chasing dreams with your own money, more power to you. When you rob me to chase your moonbeams then I get resentful.

[RightWhale]

Think if we had spent that money on curing cancer....

We did. And a lot more. Our system is wealthy beyond belief.

[from occupied ga]

The only way many rich would spend their money on this type of venture is for profit

Yep and there isn't any profit in spite of what the terminally economics deficient "think." feel.

[kjam22]

All of these jobs you speak of.... they'll be overseas jobs. We'll import from China and Japan as much as possible so we can keep the cost down. :)

[kjam22]

Seriously Right.... if you want Government to prime the pump... then just give every american citizen 21 years of age and older a couple hundered thousand dollars to spend, invest, or whatever. That makes more sense then mining Mars to do it.

[from occupied ga]

... then just give every american citizen 21 years of age and older a couple hundered thousand dollars to spend, invest, or whatever.

Where do you think the government would get this money?

[RightWhale]

they'll be overseas jobs

Not necessarily. It's a policy matter. The Mars jobs should be right here in our own territory, and many of the top engineering and science jobs could be filled by young engineers and scientists from abroad, true, but also by born Americans if they take the right courses in school and are inspired to work on the exploration of Mars. It all depends on the goal, to exclusively augment our already considerable economic wealth and power, or to build up interdependence of foreign economies with our own.

[kjam22]

People who think mining mars or the moon can make a profit do not understand how transportation or an arbitrage works. This idea only works if someone (probably the government) is ready willing and able to accept all of the loses that will be associated with it for the druation of the project.

[kjam22]

Where do you think the government would get this money?

Same place they'd get the money to colonize mars. :)

[from occupied ga]

Same place they'd get the money to colonize mars. :)

Unfortunately all too true. There are people who post on FR who actually don't realize that every penny the government spends is taken at gunpoint from someone who earned it. I see that you are not one of those.

[ConfusedAndLovingIt]

As long as you're chasing dreams with your own money, more power to you. When you rob me to chase your moonbeams then I get resentful.

Do you also resent that your local library has a fiction section? Imagine the money we could save getting rid of all those books that have absolutely no direct economic benefit to the community. Do you hate the fact that your tax dollars go toward landscaping and parks instead of just paving everything over and forgetting about it? I'm sure it would be cheaper than grass, trees and flowers that need constant attention.

Taxes which are taken from you and spent in ways that you wouldn't have spent that money is not "robbery". The goverment can promote the general welfare in ways not directly tied to economics, and those uses are still legitimate.

[krb]

If damage is found, they can fly to the space station and wait for a ride.

You can't just fly to the space station. The shuttle can only carry enough fuel to get to the space station if that's its only goal. The Space Station orbit is conducive to the Russians getting their pretty easily, but our guys have to burn something like 20% extra fuel just to move into the proper orbit to go there.

[from occupied ga]

Do you also resent that your local library has a fiction section?

I'm glad you asked. What business is it of the local government to rob me to provide books for those who don't want to buy them on their own. I'd be a lot better off keeping the money that is wasted on government libraries and buying my own books.

Do you hate the fact that your tax dollars go toward landscaping and parks instead of just paving everything over and forgetting about it?

In a word, yes. Likewise let those who use the parks pay for them. Charge a use fee sufficient to cover the operating costs of the parks and the capital and pay back the taxpayers who were gouged to provide them in the first place. That way if I don't want to use a park I don't have to pay. If I want to use it one day I only pay one day's worth. OTO those whe use them daily would pay for their use. Simple really - let those who reap the benefits do the paying.

[from occupied ga]

Taxes which are taken from you and spent in ways that you wouldn't have spent that money is not "robbery".

This egregious bit of nonsense is worthy of its own response. By your logic if I stuck a gun in your face took your money, and then spent it on what I wanted rather than what you wanted it wouldn't be robbery - Interesting logic.

[ConfusedAndLovingIt]

While I agree that many times government intrudes into areas that could better be handled by private enterprise, there are many legitimate areas where the only entity able to provide a community service is the community government. The immediate example that springs to mind is some bike paths that wind through the town that they just put in here. I don't use them and I doubt I ever will, but I don't resent my tax dollars being used for them. There's a difference between conservatism and just plain selfishness.

If your attitude (that publicly funded libraries and parks are "robbery" by the goverment) is held by the majority here, then perhaps I'm on the wrong website.

[ConfusedAndLovingIt]

This egregious bit of nonsense is worthy of its own response. By your logic if I stuck a gun in your face took your money, and then spent it on what I wanted rather than what you wanted it wouldn't be robbery - Interesting logic.

The government, by necessity, has the power to do lots of things that I, as an individual, do not. I don't have the right to lock someone up if I thought they did something wrong. I don't have the right to tell my neighbor what he can build on his property. Your logic is flawed. Government has to be granted some powers, or anarchy would reign.

The government has the power to take our money (through taxes) and spend it on things to promote the general welfare. This is a legitimate function of government.

[Thoro]

"You'll be living in an armored submarine"

Some people wouldn't mind. Some might actually enjoy the lifestyle. Modern nuclear submarines are pretty cool.

My point was, you see all these images of exploration and colonization of Mars, and they usually ignore the point that realistically there will be few, if any, windows. The atmosphere and magnetic field are so weak that it's essentially a vacuum, bombarded by most of the same radiation found in space. Walking on the surface will require a pressurized suit, and your durations outside will be very short and very precise because of the safety measures.

I know it's a nice visual image, but it's not going to look like anything in Total Recall. Ever. Why not live at the bottom of the sea if the lifestyle appeals to you? It's essentially the same thing except minus the muscle atrophy and bone loss.

[Calvin Locke]

The bureaucrats at NASA smoke guns? Must be some good stuff they are bonging through shotguns.

At least now I understand the p!ss poor performance they've demonstrated over the past 30 years.

[RightWhale]

That's right. It looks great, all clean and neat and perfect. But after a few months, the residence modules will start to get ugly in all possible ways. The average MTV weekender wouldn't even make it through the weekend on Mars. Total boredom, and it goes downhill from there. Mars isn't for everyone, and won't be for a long time to come. At the same time, there are plenty of people who would and could do it.