Flirting with Fascism

The American Conservative ^ | 6/30/2003 | John Laughland

[RKV]

If by our example we threaten theocrats, dictators and statists (but I repeat myself), then I do not propose we change our behavior to ameliorate their concerns. I suspect we don't quite agree on whether or not the old order was a good thing. I do agree with you that we can live without another Kennedy (as far as foreign policy was concerned he was an unmittigated disaster).

[JohnGalt]

This thread is about Michael Ledeen and a bouquet of flowers he threw in the 1970s to selected Italian fascist intellectuals.

You impugned the article fist by bringing in Larouche, and secondly, to impugn 'Buchananites', and now 'isolationism'.

I am saying that you wrecked your credibility the same way post #3 does and those of us who though Ledeen was nuts before we read this article, now think he is more nuts, and those who think he is 'a genius of our time' have demonstrated some odd reasoning in support of him.

Me, I just favor a well-armed citizenry, a decentralized government, and a few tar and feathering of the dunderheads in the central intelligence apparatus who first screwed up on 9/11 (not one resignation, not one pension strippe) and now have risked Bush's re-election over phantom WMDs.

[DB]

Either we engage the world on our terms or the world will engage us on its.

One nuke can wreck your whole life…

[DB]

Do you really believe Iraq doesn't have any WMD?

I don't.

[meenie]

Sounds to me like a pretty good program. Not extreme enough though for the rough and ready to control the world crowd.

[RKV]

Your argument is still not proven. At any rate, I can certainly agree with you on the importance of getting the US back to constitutional government. We don't have that now, either in the case of the 2nd Amendment, nor in terms of the appropriate limits on the size, scope and function of the federal government. I went over to the AEI to read a book review on one of the books metioned in the article and still could not find "the smoking gun." As a for-instance take a look at the author's logic in this gem "Ledeen’s careful distinction between fascist “regime” and “movement” makes him a clear apologist for the latter." Ledeen's distinction does not necessary make him an apologist - that is a logic error on the author's part. Perhaps you have a copy of "Universal Fascism" and can find something a bit more damning than what I have seen in the posted article. Also went to Amazon and it apears the the book in question is out of print (and I can't scan the index or table of contents).

[JohnGalt]

'WMD' is Orwellian political speak; it has no definition accept as a propaganda tool. WMD once meant nuclear weapons, now I do think there is any agreed upon definition, but you can bet the press will keep raising the bar if need be.

[mac_truck]

Devastatingly BRILLIANT rebuttal.

Thank you. Whoever said ugly people are stupid was wrong.

[JohnGalt]

What argument are you ascribing to me?

[RKV]

I am sure you can figure it out for yourself by reading the thread. Meanwhile, other than the inflamatory (and logically challenged) proposition of the author of this article (i.e. Ledeen = neocon = fascists), I repeat, can you find any Ledeen quotes which actually support the contention that he views fascism with favor?

[JohnGalt]

This is the only stated thesis for the essay:

"Neocon theorist Michael Ledeen draws more from Italian fascism than from the American Right."

Do you not trust people to read it for themselves?

[DB]

Any weapon that can be transported and operated by a few independent people that can kill thousands in a single use is how I basically define it.

Small Pox and Nuclear weapons are both good examples.

Where a few can cause extreme harm to a great many. A situation that hasn't ever existed in human history before.

[JohnGalt]

"Where a few can cause extreme harm to a great many. A situation that hasn't ever existed in human history before."


Hyperbole. Your logic is the equivalent of the gun grabbers claim that the Fore Fathers could never have envisioned automatic weapons when they inserted the 2nd Amendment.

The last attackers came in the front door and attacked an federal de-armed zoned (aircraft); the people who rejected the wisdom of the Fore Fathers and allowed 9/11 to happen are still in power, and you are concerned about 'small pox' a half a world away?

The medieval church never had such devotion and allegiance as the modern state, even in the face of such utter incompetence.

[RussianConservative]

just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission

When peoples start using these type words then you know to fear them. Soviet Dialect phrased in same language....such peoples are idealists and idealists leave corpses in wake.

[JohnGalt]

Your theme reminds me of Herman Hesse who went a step further. Writing in 1946, The Glass Bead Game, he suggested these 'idealists' should live separately in their own community since only death occurs when they live amongst the people.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Let me sum up for those who haven't been following this "neocon" crap:

-If you supported the war against Iraq you're a "neocon" or at least brainwashed by one;

-Michael Ledeen, whoever the F**k that is, is a "neocon leading light", and therefore, since you're a "neocon" or brainwashed by them, your fate is married to his; anything bad he says/does/thinks is also your blame as well, if he believes 2+2=5 then you do too;

-Michael Ledeen, whoever the F**k that is, has an interest in early Italian Fascism;

-that means YOU'RE A FASCIST TOO IF YOU SUPPORTED THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ!!! Ha ha ha.

Did I leave anything out, JohnGalt? If not I think I just saved everybody tons of time/effort they would have otherwise spent reading a ridiculously boring and stupid article.

[RussianConservative]

If notice, all worst excesses of humanity done by these type idealists....corrupt/debauch men are at least part time saited and some times listen to conscionce and God's word...but idealists are self righteous judgers they never saited because in their mind they do "God's"/Higher Purpose's work and almost always ends justify means.

[JohnGalt]

"Michael Ledeen, whoever the F**k that is"

That really says it all about how aware you are of the players involved.

This is an essay about Michael Ledeen's intellectual history, you are drawing your own (knee-jerk) conclusions about these crypto-motives you can uncover.

Go back to Fox News now; Ollie will make it all better.

[JohnGalt]

Veteran neo-con advisor moves on Iran

By Jim Lobe


WASHINGTON - When The Washington Post published a list of the people whom Karl Rove, President George W Bush's closest advisor, regularly consults for advice outside the administration, foreign policy veterans were shocked when Michael Ledeen popped up as the only full-time international affairs analyst.


"The two met after Bush's election," the Post reported cheerfully, quoting Ledeen about Rove's request that "any time you have a good idea, tell me". "More than once, Ledeen has seen his ideas, faxed to Rove, become official policy or rhetoric," noted the newspaper.


"When I saw that, I couldn't believe it," said one retired senior diplomat. "But then again, with this administration, it seemed frighteningly plausible."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/938053/posts

[Dr. Frank fan]

That really says it all about how aware you are of the players involved.

How is Michael Ledeen a "player involved"? And, in what?

I've seen the guy's by-line on NRO. He writes articles. He probably works for some research institute or another writing articles and the occasional book. Like about a zillion other people one can name. BFD. How does that make him a "player involved"? Is Jonah Goldberg a "player involved" too? Just the fact that you seem to think some of these article-writer people are "players involved" and others aren't, proves my point.

This is an essay about Michael Ledeen's intellectual history

And we are supposed to care because...?

Go back to Fox News now; Ollie will make it all better.

WTF are you talking about. For the record I don't get cable TV, and who's "Ollie"?

Who's drawing his own conclusions here?