'Black box' reveals all about how you drive

Tacoma News Tribune ^ | June 29th, 2003 | MATTHEW FORDAHL

[Ronaldus Magnus]

A partial list from the module supplier, who also happens to sell the $2,500 reader, may be found here.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

They appear to be located in various places throughout the vehicle. GM's tend to have them under the passenger seat and Ford's in the center tunnel. A partial list of affected models and the module's respective location may be found:

here

[Dan from Michigan]

Mine's not listed there. I hope that's good. (99 Explorer)

[AmericaUnited]

Are there states where it illegal to disable these boxes?

The Onboard Diagnostics (ODB) computer plays a key role in engine mangement and hence emissions, and so that is why it's usually illegal to tamper with it.

[DannyTN]

Thanks. The site tells models that are using this particular manufacturer. It also tells where to find the recorder, but it doesn't say what happens if you disconnect it. Below is what data it is collecting...

Q: What data can be downloaded from the vehicle's air bag module?

A*: Recorded data depends on vehicle make, model and year. The following data is typical of what is found on a newer GM vehicle.

Vehicle speed (5 seconds before impact)
Engine speed (5 seconds before impact)
Brake status (5 seconds before impact)
Throttle position (5 seconds before impact)
State of driver's seat belt switch (On/Off)
Passenger's air bag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
SIR Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Time from vehicle impact to air bag deployment
Ignition cycle count at event time
Ignition cycle count at investigation
Maximum ÄV for non-deployment event
ÄV vs. time for frontal air bag deployment event
Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum ÄV
Time between non-deploy and deploy event (if within 5 seconds)
*Depending on the particular vehicle, all or a subset of this data may be available.

[mewzilla]

AS long as this gizmatron's info is accurate, I'm all for it. But then, I don't drive like a looney :)

[ernie pantuso]

Where does the article mention that government is mandating this "black box" be put in vehicles? If a private actor is doing this, how is this analogous to govt. cameras in public places recording private activities on private property?
Actually, a more appropriate analogy: You install a video monitoring device in your home for security purposes. I buy your house without knowledge that the video recording equipment is in that house. I run a meth ring out of the house and the activities are recorded unbeknownst to me. The government obtains probable cause from sources other than the videos to arrest and charge me for heading a meth enterprise, subsequently obtains the videos that recorded the meth enterprise, and then seeks to introduce the videos as evidence against me. How is that unconstitutional, illegal, or a violation of my rights?

[PMCarey]

The problem is that the black box is analgous to the Government recording all of your phone conversations without a warrant. And then obtaining a warrant to review the recordings that were made prior to probable cause being established. That is significantly different than starting recording after a warrant is issued.

Is the government installing this or the manufacturers? If I were a car manufacturer I certainly would install one of these things because it would assist me against liability in the cases where the driver is at fault and is trying to sue me for a defect he/she claims exists. If I were the guy in the other car, I would sure would want one because then I could prove that the other driver was at fault.

There are a LOT of things in our daily lives which are recorded. My behavior on this computer is recorded. When I go to the store, my actions there are often taped. Where the problem comes in is determining when the government can have access to that recorded material. If I engage in child porn, the government SHOULD have the right to examine my computer's hard drive to determine my activities in the previous months. This is no different. The assumption is that I was involved in an accident. The government at that point should be able to use the black box to determine whether I or another driver was culpable.

[AmericaUnited]

It also tells where to find the recorder, but it doesn't say what happens if you disconnect it"

Most likely your "Check Engine" light will come on, since the main computer will detect this module is not on-line. In some states, you can't pass inspection with the idiot light on. Oh, did I forget to mention that your airbag will not deploy anymore. The good news, the government can't give you a speeding ticket. The bad news, you died in the accident because of a non-functioning airbag.

[DannyTN]

"Where does the article mention that government is mandating this "black box" be put in vehicles?"

They are not mandating. They have just "strongly encouraged" manufacturers to do this.

how is this analogous to govt. cameras in public places recording private activities on private property?

It's not. Once the light from your domain leaves and enter the public's domain, the Gov't can record it. A privacy fence can fix that though. The vehicle is your private domain. This is analogous to the government installing a camera inside your home.

then seeks to introduce the videos as evidence against me

This analogy although convoluted is more like what is happening. Now modify your analogy to say that the Government had "strongly encouraged" housing manufacturers to install secret cameras and not tell you about them. Then you would have a good analogy.

Because the manufacturer is acting in response to strong government encouragement it could be said they are acting as an agent of the government. And because the vehicle is part of your domain, to install an undisclosed recorder is tantamount to invasion of privacy.

[PMCarey]

Is'nt this no different than having the police search your hard drive for illegal arrangements of bits? (Read hate literature or porn or whatever.) Your hard drive your black box, whats the diff as it's yours and they want it?

There are a couple of differences.

1. I'm assuming that an accident has occured and the police/courts are interested in the black box to determine culpability. If a crime has occured in which the records on your computer may indicate who the culprit was, then of course the courts would grant a warrant to allow the contents of your computer to be searched. This is no different.
2. Most of what happens in your home is private activity and affects no one else. A road that has hundreds of people drive several ton vehicles at 60+ mph is not a private space. Driving is a cooperative activity and your actions within that sphere are public.

[Ronaldus Magnus]

Mine's not listed there. I hope that's good. (99 Explorer)

I think your Explorer probably DOES have it, just not a unit from this particular automotive supplier. I'm reading a Ford Service Manual for a non-listed Ford truck right now:

Event Data Recorder

The computer in your vehicle is capable of recording detailed data potentiallyincluding but not limited to information such as:
* the use of restraint systems including seat belts by the driver and passengers,
* information about the performance of various systems and modules in the vehicle, and
* information related to engine, throttle, steering, brake or other system status potentiallyincluding information related to how the driver operates the vehicle including but not limited to vehicle speed.
This information maybe stored during regular operation or in a crash or near crash event. This stored information maybe read out and used by:
* Ford Motor Company.
* service and repair facilities.
* law enforcement or government agencies.
* others who may assert a right or obtain your consent to know such information

[DannyTN]

"The good news, the government can't give you a speeding ticket. The bad news, you died in the accident because of a non-functioning airbag. "

So give up the airbag or allow the government to monitor me. Nice choice.

[tuna_battle_slight_return]

O'Reilly reported on this last week. The box is (supposedly) only activated just before a crash or near-miss (whenever you slam on your brakes). The box can corroborate your story in court, in the event there are no witnesses. This is especially helpful when the other party insists it's telling the truth. The box eliminates the "he said/she said" element.

[Dan from Michigan]

Damn it. The last thing I want is the cops and worse, the insurance ninnies to see it.

[Robert_Paulson2]

it is illegal to disable any pollution related controls.
these boxes are computers with tiny electronic hard drives and logic circuits that also run the entire ignition, fuel intake, air intake and numerous items that impact the pollution of the vehicle. they are in point of factintegrated into the pollution control system... often the anti lock brakes, and a host of other items.... even the air conditioning, or weight sensors, in the seats, on cars equiped with such options.

it is illegal to drive a vehicle modified in any way that impacts the pollution circuits. so yes it is illegal to disable these. it is also dangerious, as the vehicles may not even run without them, or the brakes may not work.... etc...

buy an older car and fix it yourself.
fwiw... for a price, DATA can be inserted in the memory circuits that is false, and since it is a computer... planted data cannot be questioned or reasonably implied in a defense...

interesting times ahead.

[DannyTN]

"There are a LOT of things in our daily lives which are recorded."

When you go to the store you are in a public domain. Not your own private domain. When you access stuff off the internet you are accessing a public domain. Once probable cause exists that you have done something illegal your private domain is subject to review once approved by a judge.

This is a hidden undisclosed device in your private domain (vehicle) that is recording your every activity. If the government wants to put video cameras on every roadway that is their domain. But to put a recorder in my domain without my consent should be illegal.

[PMCarey]

And because the vehicle is part of your domain, to install an undisclosed recorder is tantamount to invasion of privacy.

The vehicle is part of your private domain. Your actions while driving that vehicle are not.

[PMCarey]

When you go to the store you are in a public domain. Not your own private domain.

So what happens when you go onto the highway? Are you saying that a lunatic drive at 100 mph and weaving back and forth across the traffic lanes is in his own private domain?

[tuna_battle_slight_return]

Look at the phrases before all the instances of the word "crash" in the story. The phrases are "moments before" or "seconds before". Why wouldn't you want something to activate seconds before a crash, in order to corroborate your story (and prove that you're innocent, in the event of no witnesses)?