[SCOTUS: Please Read:] SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE AGAINST SODOMY [---oops, too late...]

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[RAT Patrol]

Because we do not each have our own islands. There are fundamental individual rights that cannot be infringed. No one claimed that sodomy was a fundamental right. Freedom to our founders meant freedom of the people to make their own laws as long as they didn't infringe on fundamental individual rights.

Sodomy is so basically and obviously unnatural that it's amazing we are even discussing it. One quick look at the human body shows how we were created (or evolved - if you prefer a non-Declaration of Independence term) to have sex. With poop-sex (other than the obvious "two plugs, no outlet" thing), you cannot kiss while doing it; you cannot embrace while doing it; one party must injure the other party to do it (my mom used to work at a motel and she said the sheets were always a disgusting mess after gay men rented a room); genitals are obviously not joined together, etc..

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles." -Patrick Henry

[Aeronaut]

I am pretty sure what the author was trying to say, yet the wording was incorrect in context.

Agreed. My first read caused the same reaction as yours.

[Nick5]

We're just so far apart on this. Straight people also engage in anal sex. Gay people go for oral sex, too, as do straight people, and that's not where genitals were meant to be, but are you going to tell me you've never enjoyed giving or getting oral sex? How can you say that individuals don't have the right to do whatever they want with another adult who wants the same thing? Who are you to say what "natural" is? Why do we live in climates where we have to wear clothes and build structures to protect ourselves from the climate? Why do we have to divert rivers to irrigate our fields? ARe those things "natural?" Shouldn't we all live naked in the tropics and eat fruit off the trees? I live in a city and work in a business where there are many many gay people living in long-standing relationships, being successful, happy, busy, socially conscious, accepted by their friends and families, sensible enough to keep themselves free from AIDS, and I just don't get that there is anything in any way wrong with what they do.

[Nick5]

P.S. Patrick Henry was also very much in favor of slavery, and of making sure that there were armed patrols on hand to keep them on the plantations and shoot them if necessary, so I can't see Patrick Henry as much of an authority of freedom.

[Blzbba]

Naaa...I was just kinda messin' with your post.

I'm in 100% agreement with everything you said below (c&p'd from your response to me):


Cato:

"You seem to miss my point a bit where you disagree. What I mean to say is that I think sodomy is/ought to be a moral question, not a legal question. I condemn it and worry about those who engage in it on a moral level. On a legal level, with my assumptions about keeping them away from the kiddies, consent and keeping it private, I could care less. My comment about being happy was a bit of a toss-off: sort of on the lines of "if you want to engage in Darwin-award-winning behavior that doesn't affect anyone else, be my guest". On a certain level, one could be at least mildly pleased that those whose behavior you think is harmful are industriously killing themselves off.
I suppose it's a bit of a conundrum, but I don't see a contradition for praying for mercy for the souls of those who have sinned, while not thinking the state should stop them from engaging in those sinful behaviors. In fact, that is a position for the separation of church and state. "

[B] Total agreement!

[RAT Patrol]

George Will says it better than I do: George Will on the Right to Privacy

If you don't like Patrick Henry, try these guys:

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." -John Adams, Oct. 11, 1798 Address to the military

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private virtue, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." -John Adams

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure if we have removed their only firm basis: a conviction in the minds of men that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson

"We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." -James Madison

"A general dissolution of the principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy.... While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but once they lose their virtue, they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader.... If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security." -Samuel Adams

"Your supposed right to destroy yourself infringes on my right to pursue happiness, being sad at having to sit by and watch people needlessly suffer and die. When you abrogate the unalienable right to life, doing so abrogates my unalienble right to pursue happiness, being sad at watching people needlessly suffer and die." -The Forecastle

"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt. He therefore is the truest friend of the liberty of his country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen onto any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man." -Samuel Adams

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." -William Penn

"[I]f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us, that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity." -Daniel Webster

"No country upon earth ever had it more in its power to attain blessings. Much to be regretted indeed would it be, were we to depart from the road which Providence has pointed us to, so plainly; I cannot believe it will ever come to pass. The Great Governor of the Universe has led us too long and too far to forsake us in the midst of it. We may, now and then, get bewildered; but I hope and trust that there is good sense and virtue enough left to recover the right path. " -George Washington

"Out of every hundred new ideas ninety-nine or more will probably be inferior to the traditional responses which they propose to replace. No one man, however brilliant or well-informed, can come in one lifetime to such fullness of understanding as to safely judge and dismiss the customs or institutions of his society, for these are the wisdom of generations after centuries of experiment in the laboratory of history." -- Will and Ariel Durant

[RAT Patrol]

My point in the unnatural comment is that that which is so unnatural is obviously not a fundamental right. Communities that are free and democratic should be able to make laws that represent their beliefs. If they can't, then gone are prostitution laws, incest laws, age-of-consent laws, polygamy laws, etc... Maybe you see that as a good thing too. I don't. That's a "Let License Ring" argument.

[Blzbba]

First off, lemme say that this entire thread makes me wanna vomit! Comments from me denoted by [B] below:


"Sodomy is so basically and obviously unnatural that it's amazing we are even discussing it."

[B] First off, "Sodomy" here is anal-sex only. Oral sex between heteros is considered "sodomy", though I disagree with that term for it.

One quick look at the human body shows how we were created (or evolved - if you prefer a non-Declaration of Independence term) to have sex. With poop-sex (other than the obvious "two plugs, no outlet" thing), you cannot kiss while doing it; you cannot embrace while doing it; one party must injure the other party to do it (my mom used to work at a motel and she said the sheets were always a disgusting mess after gay men rented a room); genitals are obviously not joined together, etc..


[B] "Poop sex"? Hmmm...interesting description...but I think "poop chute sex" is more appropriate - LOL! But there are a multitude of sexual positions practiced between loving, married, hetero couples that don't allow kissing, facial contact, or embracing. Good ol' doggy-style sex leaps to mind. Are you saying that only missionary position should be honored? If so, there will be millions of lawbreakers!


""Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles." -Patrick Henry "

[B] Can't argue with that...but to me, as long as the poop-chuting pillow biters pay taxes and keep their unnatural behavior to themselves, I could not care less what happens in their bedrooms. Who's the judge of whether or not they are "bad men"? Let God sort 'em out.

[Blzbba]

"Having a tiny minority of the population absord a relatively huge proportion of health care resources is THE problem here. "


Zero argument from me. So which minority are we talking about - gay pillow biters? uninsured crack smokers? Welfare moms? Illegal aliens who use our Emergency rooms? Uninsured motorists?

[RAT Patrol]

Several billion dollars of our money just went to Africa to fight AIDS. Several billion more are spent every year studying, fighting disease, education about how to perform in the bedroom safely, etc... I don't see how it doesn't affect you.

[dansangel]

This is a lot more than I really wanted to know but now I know..

You and me, both, sweetie.....

[Blzbba]

"I don't see how it doesn't affect you. "

Well, none of what you said constitutes gay sex affecting me. What you said are the results of the gay PACs screaming and whining and Bush/Clinton approving the wasting of tax dollars. In this case, the Flaming Homo lobbyists and Bush/Clinton are to blame for deciding how my money is spent, not the act of private pillow-biting.

Interestingly, you conveniently ignored every other point I made in my first response to you.

[ApesForEvolution]

USSC up yours BTTT. lol

[RAT Patrol]

Actually, I didn't ignore your points. I read them and had no response.

If you think there will ever come a time that you don't have to fund their diseases then I think you are too optimistic. But I'll make you a deal. Pull that off -- end the public funding of all the stuff I mentioned -- and I'll think you make a good point on the privacy issue.

[Blzbba]

Well, I agree that public money shouldn't be used to subsidize their lifestyles...but...

there are a multitde of other behaviors committed by mature adults that, while not incorrect morally, religiously, or ethically, still are a burden to our public health care system.

Should drinking, driving, smoking, and other activities/vices (2 of those are arguably unethical and not relgious..."body is a temple",etc.) be outlawed?

[RAT Patrol]

You can still discriminate against those behaviors, btw. One of the points in overturning the poop-sex law was that it stigmatizes these people for discrimination.

Should those other things be illegal? Actually, they are in many instances. Further, the gov't has sued tabacco companies for billions of dollars to recover health care costs. A smoking individual pays higher insurance rates and taxes for these purposes too. Liquor and its consumption is subject to special laws. Driving cannot be done by all. Visually impared persons are discriminated against, as are many handicapped people. You must have a license and prove you are capable, etc...all for public health and safety reasons. What gives the gov't the right to tell me how fast I can drive? Etc...

[katze]

"Shouldn't the government trust citizens to care for their own health?"

Sounds like a wonderful idea, but then, how about all the innocent people who rec'd HIV-contaminated blood?

[katze]

Sounds to me like you don't know the difference.

[Blzbba]

good points, re: taxes on tobacco and alcohol.

Now...how do we go about imposing a special tax on poop-chuters? Because we're in agreement about not subsidizing this behavior.

I don't know the solution here and am not sure there is one. Making the behavior illegal sure didn't put a stop to AIDS or poop-chuting pillow biters.

[Im Your Huckleberry]

I like to think of it as "the inmates are running the asylum"...

But I think you're right. America is just about over.

The illegal alien hordes have overrun us, the left has successfully indocrinated and brainwashed at least three generations, they've taken over the halls of academia, and they've opened the gates to the barbarians as a result.

The country is done. I really believe that. I really do believe this great nation is wounded beyond any hope of repair or regeneration.

And it saddens me in ways you cannot imagine to say something like that.

But I really feel as if the gates have been opened, and the barbarian hordes have simply overrun us.