Posted on 06/19/2003 8:29:45 AM PDT by Korth
My ex gave me plenty of reason to, but I necer did; and I believe God will bless my next marriage because of it. There are a lot of single middle-age Christian women out there who look forward to having a very uninhibited and sexually passionate marriage when they meet a soul-mate.
May God lead you to that right person this time......HE is faithful, and it is HE who gives us the desire, and means of expression within marriage, and a level of pleasure that people who sleep around (like a few of the guys on this thread), don't ever find.
I recall the Saturday Night Live commentary on this subject, in the immediate wake of the Jimmy Swaggart hotel incident:
"The man was masturbating. Let him who hath a free hand, cast the first stone."
(a) Courtship requires that the couple never be alone together -- this is defined as a "date" and is forbidden. However, this requirement for 100% supervision is nearly impossible to arrange, especially for adults with fulltime jobs, long commutes, etc. It's even harder if their families are non-Christian, broken, far away, or not willing to be involved. Friends and so-called "accountability couples" have busy lives of their own, and can usually chaperone only rarely.
So as a practical matter, it's nearly impossible to build a relationship in the modern world unless a couple is willing to "bend the rules" and do some one-on-one dating. To their credit, most courtship types will acknowledge this when pressed to the wall (or, when they get into a relationship themselves and discover it the hard way.)
(b) Courtship has absolutely no mechanism for finding someone to court. Indeed, courtship isn't even supposed to begin until a man has already found a suitable woman, and is pretty darn near sure that he'll marry her if he wins her over -- only then is he permitted to approach the woman's father or guardian.
But, without how is a man ever supposed to find a woman? Only rarely does this happen through natural social circles (work, church, school, etc.) Courtship advocates actively discourage internet matchmaking, visiting other churches just to meet women, having friends set up blind dates, etc. Worse, they tell young folks, no romance till they're out of school - ignoring the fact that highschool and college are by far the best opportunities to meet someone.
With stances like that, how courters expect anyone to find mates is anybody's guess. All experience hath shewn, that for most people, if they don't get out and do some casual (but chaste) "shopping around"-type dating, marriage will never happen for them.
But courtship advocates, in my experience, are in total denial about this issue. Over and over, I challenged them, "How do I FIND someone to court?" They never had an answer for me, and the more I pressed the issue, the madder they got (a sure sign that people know, deep down, that they are wrong.)
So I stuck with dating, and I finally found someone.
Nonsense. Women behave and communicate totally differently in potentially romantic situation. All my deep, non-romantic Christian frienships with women taught me nothing whatsoever about romance.
You don't know them til you date them.
And, he never got married, either.
"We avoided the purposelessness of dating by setting boundaries on our time together and made it known that marriage was the overall goal, whether it would be to each other or someone else."
By that definition, I've never been on a date in my life. For me, from age 14, dating was ALWAYS about finding a marriage partner. I NEVER dated for "sport" -- with sex excluded from the dating equation, there's not much sport in it!
Still... the courtship rules now being created or resurrected, are too restrictive, and will prevent many people from finding mates. Some middle ground MUST be found to allow clean, chaste dating (ie pre-60's style), because until the whole culture is reformed, people who just "quit dating" may often be left in a lurch with no alternative, stuck in singleness for life. As the author herself admits
"If I have made any kind of case against our current dating practices, I know that was the easy part. The solution is not necessarily obvious, and our current cultural atmosphere simply does not provide any support for a return to old courtship practices.
This was also worth repeating:
If a teenage boy shows interest in treating girls properly, with respect and gentility he is made fun of mercilessly.
If a 37 year old virgin man shows interest in treating Christian women properly.... same result, all too often. The chivalry my parents taught me, as often made me a chump, as a hero. (But, my wife loves it!)
RC: Years ago, I had my father (a Godly man) telling me to date 'every woman I could'>
Me: Isn't a key element of courtshipthink, "Obey Your Parents" in matters of romance? Has your Dad ever rescinded this command?
My parents told me about the same thing, but I didn't listen til my mid-30s. My dating prior to about age 35 was very "courtship-like" -- and futile and rare! Once I began dating around more casually, things got a lot better, and it only took me a little over 3 years to get here --- my wedding is tomorrow.
RC: I now recognise that at the time, I was never in the mindset to date "for fun... I had serious intent in mind.
Me: Me too. It's a good thing... but, the one problem is, the girls sense the seriousness right up front, and RUN!!!!!!! Usually, they wouldn't even talk to me, let alone go out with me. Like you, I was actively avoided [nb -- he had told me this earlier], and was confidentially informed of that fact by several people. Yet courtship PROMOTES this fatal overseriousness! Courters, do you have an answer for this?
Another point: Fun is not the ultimate goal of dating, but, dating should certainly be fun!
RC: The problem, however, in not dating casually, is that when I tried to show active (and appropriate) interest, I got nowhere because I was so far behind the 8-ball socially. Casual dating would have helped that, I am fairly sure (just joking ... or maybe not).
Me: Casual dating can help. Trust me on this one. Better late than never. I started at 35. However.. avoid dating nonbelievers or anyone else that you a priori know that you couldn't marry. Even though you're lightening up about the whole process, you're still mate-seeking. So don't waste money or evenings on those who aren't eligible. BUT, within those parameters, definitely date every woman you can, as your father taught you.
Admittedly, there is a risk of broken hearts in dating around. It certainly happened to me. But I'd rather risk the temporary heartbreak of romantic disappointment, than the PERMANENT heartbreak of staying single for life. Nothing risked, nothing gained.
Guys, take note: Dating LOTS of women, will take the "DESPERATE EDGE" off of you, as it did for me. THIS IS CRUCIAL. Much less is at stake on a date, if you know that you have a date with someone else next week -- and an email box full of possibilities. Older single guys who feel strongly (as I did) that their marriage is long overdue, are particularly vulnerable to being, and looking, desperate -- and women flee the slightest hint of desperation.
Speaking of email, the internet is a great way to meet women. Corresponding long distance (even if you never meet) is also a good way to get to understand women, and, in my case, sometimes I actually did travel considerable distances to meet the women. Great experiences, for the most part. I met my wife on a Christian internet dating site, in fact.
Also, the ability to THINK OVER your response (to an email, for instance) eliminates the "real-time" pressure that socially inept people like me often stumble over in an awkward initial conversation. If you've already gotten to know each other a lot through email FIRST, then, the face-to-face meeting is much less fear and pressure.
Most of the time, it won't go beyond one or 2 dates per woman, but that's okay, it's great learning experience. And likely as not, eventually something will click with somebody. THEN you can get serious, and transition to something "courtship-like" -- AFTER you've found someone worthy and willing to court.
And as I've said all along, FINDING SOMEONE TO COURT is one of the critical weaknesses in courtship -- one which nobody here [Courtship Connection] was ever willing or able to answer. As I said before, What's the use of believing in courtship if you'll never have anyone to court? Which was, in the final analysis, my main reason for sticking with dating, and giving you guys so much grief.
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Well.... That about sums it up.
Well, perhaps you should define 'romance'.....
Maybe you just hang around the wrong people. Your relationships with Christian friends of the opposite sex should teach you about friendship, respect, honesty, conversational skills, and spiritual relationships. Not a bit of nonsense in it, and all important in marriage.
The romance part is easy to figure out........
Okay so far, but..
The romance part is easy to figure out...
No it isn't. Not at all. Romance is utterly different from friendship. All those things you mentioned are necessary, but, romance requires *something else* besides.
I'm assuming you're male. Any woman worth marrying won't be upset if you're not experienced........and I'm talking about the 'romance'......not sex (God made that part for marriage only, and any 'experience' beforehand is harmful to a marriage and needs to be overcome......fortunately for us, neither my husband nor I came to our marriage with that 'experiences' to overcome).
Neither of us dated much........but did enough to know that its artificiality doesn't prepare you one bit for marriage, and we both strongly feel that it was our friendships.....honest, deep friendships with members of the opposite sex that prepared us better for our own courtship and marriage.
We didn't have any trouble with 'romance' because we cared about each other, treated each other with respect, talked about everything under the sun, including our shared values, life goals, and faith in Jesus Christ, and then fell deeply (and quickly) in love, and not incidentally, are still mad about each other 27 years later.
Dating other people beforehand was almost completely irrelevant to our relationship......then, and now. And I think you'll find that to be true of others who have done the same.
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