Which Billy did Pat Garrett get?

NYT via IHT ^ | Michael Janofsky

[Phsstpok]

Your computer desk looks about like mine. How the heck do we get stuff done (g)?

[PoorMuttly]

Does anyone make a D.A. like this ?

Muttly has plans, you know. His modern D.A.s look wrong in a western holster.

[Inyo-Mono]

Matt Dillon?

My thoughts,exactly. Does the N.Y. Times reporter think Matt Dillon of "Gunsmoke" TV fame was a real western hero?

[hardhead]

A fascinating subject, western archaeology. In fact, the west grows more fascinating every day for me. Always have been a western movie fan but living here gives me some exciting side trips to Hole-in-the-Wall, Sand Creek Draw (the site of the Sand Creek massacre), the Cody Museum, and on. Fort Washakie, which was a Buffalo Soldier outpost, is within 15 miles. They say that truth is sometimes stranger than fiction and I'm beginning to discover that.

[Inyo-Mono]

Here is my double action, an 1897 Iver Johnson .38 S&W (black powder cartridges).

[PoorMuttly]

I need this !

[Inyo-Mono]

Yes, and best of all, it's a pre-1898 antique, so no forms, no paperwork, no nothing.

[PoorMuttly]

Hmmmmm.

Worked then....

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

At the WHITE'S MUSEUM outside Calsbad Caverns, they had a newspaper article on how a young man named MUCHACHO was shot by Garrett and thought to be Billy the Kid.
In a western magazine years ago it was claimed that the origional grave of Billy the Kid was washed away in a flood of the Pecos river. A new stone was carved and set in the middle of the cemetery to keep the tourists happy.



Others rumored to have escaped their fate and lived a long happy life in a far away land....
Fletcher Christian
David Crockett
Butch Cassidy
John Wilkes Booth
William Quantrill
Jesse James

[Inyo-Mono]

I beleive that that is the same Lew Wallace who wrote the novel, Ben Hur.

[jdege]

I'm descended from the Bonneys, and my grandmother always insisted that Billy the Kid wasn't William Bonney, but some non-relative who'd fostered or boarded with the Bonney's for a short time, and who used William Bonney's name (who was about the same age) when he took a life of crime.

What I've learned of his life makes it easy to believe that he wasn't really named William Bonney - but if he ever boarded or fostered with the Bonneys it doesn't show up in any history of the period I've ever read.

(The Bonneys were Mayflower descendents and early travellers on the Oregon Trail.)

[Lancey Howard]

Cool stuff.

[Clinging Bitterly]

>> Iver Johnson .38 S&W

Wow that is only the second one of those I have ever seen. I have one, but it has a long barrel and a larger wood grip, otherwise looks exactly like it. I have no idea how old it is, but my dad's doctor gave it to him in the late '40s. It is well worn, the latch has been filed to tighten it up, I guess they had a problem popping open. I bought a box of cartridges and ran them through it around 25 years ago, and came to the conclusion that it is a dangerous weapon. Quite a lightshow when you fire it in the dark, stuff comes out in every direction. Were those designed for black powder? That is not what I used.

Dave in Eugene

[Shooter 2.5]

I don't do anything with it. I just Freep all the time.

My reloading bench is on the other side. I used to post that picture but I took it off because it wasn't something that a lot of people understood.

[Shooter 2.5]

http://www.crimelibrary.com/americana/kid/

"Little is known about Billy the Kid's genesis, except that he came into this world (according to his own testimony) in an Irish section of the Bowery slums of New York City sometime (it is estimated) between September and November, 1859. Since he was born in the days before documented record-keeping, both his parentage and real name remain unsettled. For years, scholars generally agreed he was christened William Henry Bonney, his parents being William and Kathleen (nee McCarty) Bonney. More recent research, though, unearths clues that point to his having been born with the name Henry McCarty, to a Patrick and Catherine (nee Bonney) McCarty."

[Inyo-Mono]

Yes, Dave the early Iver Johnson .38s were designed for black powder, some models with black powder frames were made as late as 1935. Because of the higher (and longer) pressure spike, smokeless powder tears them apart, which is probably what happened to your latch.

With the longer barrel and grips, yours was a custom order piece. Mine is the standard model of 1897 and is in near mint condition. It shoots quite well. If you want to find out what year your Iver Johnson was made, copy and paste the following url into your browser.

http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ij-antiq.htm

[Clinging Bitterly]

>> With the longer barrel and grips, yours was a custom order piece.

I did a bit of reading up after seeing your post last night, and see that the barrel length and grip style is somewhat uncommon.

>> Mine is the standard model of 1897 and is in near mint condition. It shoots quite well.

Yes, much better than the examples I saw pictured around the web. Also, being made in 1897, it has C&R status and so is exempt from federal regs as per the 1968 GCA. That would increase it's value. I'm going to pull mine out of the safe this morning and examine it's features.

Dave in Eugene

[Eaker]

Everytime I start to think that I know something about guns y'all bring me back down to Earth.

Thanks for that!

Eaker

[Shooter 2.5]

Here's few books to help.

Flayderman's guide to American Antique Firearms.
Cartridges of the World
Small Arms of the World
Gun Parts Corporations Parts manual
Jane's Guns recognition guide
The reprint of the Bannerman's catalogue of 1927

If you reload, the Sierra, Hornady and the Accurate Arms reloading manuals are good.

.

If you're heavy into the Garand's or M1A's, the Kuhnhausen Shop Manual is excellent. They also put out one for the 1911.

Those are the books I use the most.

Somewhere in the back of the Shotgun News, there was a publishing company that reprinted the stories of Jesse James by his son, Autobiography of Cole Younger, Billy the Kid by Garrett and a couple more. There were something like five dollars each. Check it out.

Are there any guns you want to shoot? I think I can fix just about anyone who wants to shoot something they never have. I don't have any subguns and I'm leaving the blackpowder stuff behind.

[Clinging Bitterly]

I pulled mine out of the safe and it is more like this one:

It's a third model for sure, has the coil mainspring with the adjustment notches, so is supposedly "okay" for smokeless powder. The picture here is of a .32, mine is, of course, a .38, and the grip is somewhat different, it goes all the way around the grip frame, and each half is a solid piece of dark walnut. The finish is in a lot better condition on mine, probably 90% of the blueing remains so it shines up pretty nice. The bore has no pitting, but it seems to have a lot of wear. Makes me wonder what kind of ammo was used in it. I know my dad used it to shoot yard deer (never had to wait for a particular season and "go hunting" out on the farm), along with an old Stevens Favorite .22 rifle I also posess.

From what I can tell it was made before 1915, but I'll have to find the serial number info to be sure.

I think the biggest problem with the way mine shoots is that the the cylinder isn't held in a precisely timed position. When the little tang is fully engaged, looking at it from the top with the frame open, it almost looks bent. I don't know if it's worth trying to get that fixed or not, since I don't plan on firing it much at all.

Dave in Eugene