Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius
Here:
"I'll say again that based on what I knew in 1992, I would vote for Bill Clinton ten times out of ten before I would vote for George Bush Sr." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/786927/posts?q=1&&page=401#420
And here:
"I did say, and say again, that based on what I knew in 1992 I would vote for Clinton over Bush Sr. ten times out of ten." - WhiskeyPapa, 4/7/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/886354/posts?page=119#137
[non-seq] George H.W. Bush???
Did I not tell you it was an epidemic? The Wlat brigadiers are sounding more and more like liberal democrats with each passing day.
That claim conflicts with the eyewitness reports of medical staff on hand in Andersonville. Dr. Isaiah H. White, a surgeon at Andersonville, gave the following account of the availability of supplies:
"We were sadly deficient in medicines, the United States Government having declared medicines contraband of war, and by the blockade prohibiting us from getting them abroad, we were thrown largely on the use of indigenous remedies."
White further documents that digestive disease caused the overwhelming majority of deaths:
"The sudden aggregation of these men at a camp unprepared for their reception, originally designed for only ten thousand men, developed many unsanitary conditions, which combined with pre-existing causes, evolving sickness and stamping it with a greater virulence. The most prominent of these were: The men came from a higher latitude and unaccustomed to a Southern climate in the most unhealthy season of the year, August. The temporary detective police of the camp, and the insufficient protection in quarters, and the bread ration, consisting of corn-meal used largely in the South, to which they were unaccustomed, contributed to the spread of diarrhœa and dysentery, which was the cause of eighty-six per cent. of the entire number of deaths." (emphasis added)
I must also ask if you hold your own side to the same standards you demand out of Andersonville. While Andersonville was located in the south and thus inhibited from full supplies by the blockade, the same cannot be said of any yankee prison. Despite that fact the sum total of mortalities in northern prisons exceeded the southern prisons, and that despite there being fewer total prisoners in yankee hands.
That doesn't defend Bill Clinton any more than Winston Churchill defended Satan when he rose in Parliament and said:
"If Hitler invaded Hell, I would rise in this chamber and say a good word for the Devil."
It would hard to say I defended Bill Clinton based on events that happened before he was even elected.
You're Out. I've never said a good word about Bill Clinton on FR.
Walt
As opposed to the Yankee prison commandants that blocked such shipments from getting to the Confederate prisoners?
You haven't shown that such shipments existed. I thought the south was starving and that's why federal prisoners were half starved?
It would have unfair for the government to let shipments of food get through the lines to rebel detainees when the policy of the Richmond government was to deliberately starve Union POW's so as to pressure Washington into a return to the exchange cartels, wouldn't it?
Walt
Georgia was practically awash with food. Union POW's were --allowed-- to starve.
"G. W. Nichols, has provided some dry figures in his "Story of the Great March" (published 1865, London). On its march Sherman's army confiscated 100 million dollars worth of grain and cattle. The troops used 20 million dollars worth for themselves and the remainder was destroyed. This figure includes only the food supplies; the destroyed houses, roads and equipment have never been calculated This "wonderful success" Simulated the other generals. Sheridan, one of Grant's cavalry general destroyed 100,000 bushels of wheat, 50,000 bushels of maize, 6,200 ton. of hay and 11,000 head of cattle in Rockingham County alone.
From Covington the Fourteenth Corps (Davis's), with which I was travelling, turned to the right for Milledgeville, via Shady Dale. General Slocum was ahead at Madison, with the Twentieth Corps, having torn up the railroad as far as that place, and thence had sent Geary's division on to the Oconee, to burn the bridges across that stream, when this corps turned south by Eatonton, for Milledgeville, the common "objective" for the first stage of the "march." We found abundance of corn, molasses, meal, bacon, and sweet potatoes. We also took a good many cows and oxen, and a large number of mules. In all these the country was quite rich, never before having been visited by a hostile army; the recent crop had been excellent, had been just gathered and laid by for the winter. As a rule, we destroyed none, but kept our wagons full, and fed our teams bountifully. The skill and success of the men in collecting forage was one of the features of this march. Each brigade commander had authority to detail a company of foragers, usually about fifty men, with one or two commissioned officers selected for their boldness and enterprise. This party would be despatched before daylight with a knowledge of the intended day's march and camp, would proceed on foot five or six miles from the route travelled by their brigade, and then visit every plantation and farm within range. They would usually procure a wagon or family carriage, load it with bacon, corn-meal, turkeys, chickens, ducks, and everything that could be used as food or forage, and would then regain the main road, usually in advance of the train. When this came up, they would deliver to the brigade commissary the supplies thus gathered by the way. Often would I pass these foraging-parties at the roadside, waiting for their wagons to come up, and was amused at their strange collections,--mules, horses, even cattle, packed with old saddles and loaded with hams, bacon, bags of cornmeal, and poultry of every character and description. Although this foraging was attended with great danger and hard work, there seemed to be a charm about it that attracted the soldiers, and it was a privilege to be detailed on such a party. Daily they returned mounted on all sorts of beasts, which were at once taken from them and appropriated to the general use; but the next day they would start out again on foot, only to repeat the experience of the day before. No doubt many acts of pillage, robbery, and violence were committed by these parties of foragers, usually called "bummers;" for I have since heard of jewelry taken from women, and the plunder of articles that never reached the commissary; but these acts were exceptional and incidental. I never heard of any cases of murder or rape; and no army could have carried along sufficient food and forage for a march of three hundred miles: so that foraging in some shape was necessary. The country was sparsely settled, with no magistrates or civil authorities who could respond to requisitions, as is done in all the wars of Europe: so that this system of foraging was simply indispensable to our success. By it our men were well supplied with all the essentials of life and health, while the wagons retained enough in case of unexpected delay, and our animals were well fed. Indeed, when we reached Savannah the trains were pronounced by experts to be the finest in flesh and appearance ever seen with any army.
Habitually each corps followed some main road, and the foragers, being kept out on the exposed flank, served all the military uses of flankers. The main columns gathered, by the roads travelled, much forage and food, chiefly meat, corn, and sweet potatoes, and it was the duty of each division and brigade quartermaster to fill his wagons as fast as the contents were issued to the troops. The wagon-trains had the right to the road always, but each wagon was required to keep closed up, so as to leave no gaps in the column. If for any purpose any wagon or group of wagons dropped out of place, they had to wait for the rear. And this was always dreaded, for each brigade commander wanted his train up at camp as soon after reaching it with his men as possible. I have seen much skill and industry displayed by these quartermasters on the march, in trying to load their wagons with corn and fodder by the way without losing their place in column. They would, while marching, shift the loads of wagons, so as to have six or ten of them empty. Then, riding well ahead, they would secure possession of certain stacks of fodder near the road, or cribs of corn, leave some men in charge, then open fences and a road back for a couple of miles, return to their trains, divert the empty wagons out of column, and conduct them rapidly to their forage, load up and regain their place in column without losing distance. On one occasion I remember to have seen ten or a dozen wagons thus loaded with corn from two or three full cribs, almost without halting. These cribs were built of logs, and roofed. The train-guard, by a lever, had raised the whole side of the crib a foot or two; the wagons drove close alongside, and the men in the cribs, lying on their backs, kicked out a wagon-load of corn in the time I have taken to describe it. In a well-ordered and well-disciplined army these things might be deemed irregular, but I am convinced that the ingenuity of these younger officers accomplished many things far better than I could have ordered, and the marches were thus made, and the distances were accomplished, in the most admirable way. Habitually we started from camp at the earliest break of dawn, and usually reached camp soon after noon. The marches varied from ten to fifteen miles a day, though sometimes on extreme flanks it was necessary to make as much as twenty; but the rate of travel was regulated by the wagons; and, considering the nature of the roads, fifteen miles per day was deemed the limit. The pontoon-trains were in like manner distributed in about equal proportions to the four corps, giving each a section of about nine hundred feet. The pontoons were of the skeleton pattern, with cotton-canvas covers, each boat, with its proportion of balks and chesses, constituting a load for one wagon. By uniting two such sections together, we could make a bridge of eighteen hundred feet, enough for any river we had to traverse; but habitually the leading brigade would, out of the abundant timber, improvise a bridge before the pontoon-train could come up, unless in the case of rivers of considerable magnitude, such as the Ocmulgee, Oconee, Ogeechee, Savannah, etc. [On the 20th of November, Sherman stopped at a plantation mansion which, by chance, he discovered to be that of Howell Cobb, Secretary of the Treasury in Buchanan's Cabinet, and at that time a general in the Confederate army. Here, contrary to his usual custom, he ordered that nothing should be spared: the fence-rails were destroyed for camp-fires, and an immense quantity of corn and provisions of all sorts was carried off. While the left wing was marching in this direction, General Howard, with the right wing, was advancing towards Macon, which he reached on the 22d, driving before him the Confederate forces that endeavored to hold the town.]
By the 23d I was in Milledgeville with the left wing, and was in full communication with the right wing at Gordon. The people of Milledgeville remained at home, except the Governor (Brown), the State officers, and Legislature, who had ignominiously fled, in the utmost disorder and confusion; standing not on the order of their going, but going at once,--some by rail, some by carriages, and many on foot. Some of the citizens who remained behind described this flight of the "brave and patriotic" Governor Brown. He had occupied a public building known as the "Governor's Mansion," and had hastily stripped it of carpets, curtains, and furniture of all sorts, which were removed to a train of freight-cars, which carried away these things,--even the cabbages and vegetables from his kitchen and cellar,--leaving behind muskets, ammunition, and the public archives. On my arrival at Milledgeville I occupied the same public mansion, and was soon over-whelmed with appeals for protection. General Slocum had previously arrived with the Twentieth Corps, had taken up his quarters at the Milledgeville Hotel, established a good provost-guard, and excellent order was maintained. The most frantic appeals had been made by the Governor and Legislature for help from every quarter, and the people of the State had been called out en masse to resist and destroy the invaders of their homes and firesides. Even the prisoners and convicts of the penitentiary were released on condition of serving as soldiers, and the cadets were taken from their military college for the same purpose. These constituted a small battalion, under General Harry Wayne, a former officer of the United States Army, and son of the then Justice Wayne of the Supreme Court. But these hastily retreated across the Oconee River, leaving us a good bridge, which we promptly secured. At Milledgeville we found newspapers from all the South, and learned the consternation which had filled the Southern mind at our temerity; many charging that we were actually fleeing for our lives and seeking safety at the hands of our fleet on the sea-coast. All demanded that we should be assailed, "front, flank, and rear;" that provisions should be destroyed in advance, so that we would starve; that bridges should be burned, roads obstructed, and no mercy shown us. Judging from the tone of the Southern press of that day, the outside world must have supposed us ruined and lost. [Some of these appeals are curious. We give an example.
"To the People of Georgia: "Arise for the defence of your native soil! Rally around your patriotic Governor and gallant soldiers! Obstruct and destroy all the roads in Sherman's front, flank, and rear, and his army will soon starve in your midst. Be confident. Be resolute. Trust in an overruling Providence, and success will crown your efforts. I hasten to join you in the defence of your home and firesides. "G. T. BEAUREGARD."] Of course we were rather amused than alarmed at these threats, and made light of the feeble opposition offered to our progress. Some of the officers (in the spirit of mischief) gathered together in the vacant Hall of Representatives, elected a Speaker, and constituted themselves the Legislature of the State of Georgia! A proposition was made to repeal the ordinance of secession, which was well debated, and resulted in its repeal by a fair vote! I was not present at these frolics, but heard of them at the time, and enjoyed the joke. [The arsenal at Milledgeville was destroyed, with such other public buildings as could be used for hostile purposes, but all private property was spared. The right wing meanwhile continued its march along the railroad towards Savannah, destroying the ties and rails as it advanced. The cavalry was sent on a circuitous route to Millen, to rescue the prisoners of war confined there.]
On the 24th we renewed the march, and I accompanied the Twentieth Corps, which took the direct road to Sandersville, which we reached simultaneously with the Fourteenth Corps, on the 26th. A brigade of rebel cavalry was deployed before the town, and was driven in and through it by our skirmish-line. I myself saw the rebel cavalry apply fire to stacks of fodder standing in the fields at Sandersville, and gave orders to burn some unoccupied dwellings close by. On entering the town, I told certain citizens (who would be sure to spread the report) that, if the enemy attempted to carry out their threat to burn their food, fodder, and corn in our route, I would most undoubtedly execute to the letter the general orders of devastation made at the outset of the campaign. With this exception, and one or two minor cases near Savannah, the people did not destroy food, for they saw clearly that it would be ruin to themselves. At Sandersville I halted the left wing until I heard that the right wing was abreast of us on the railroad. During the evening a negro was brought to me who had that day been to the station (Tenille) about six miles south of the town. I inquired of him if there were any Yankees there, and he answered, "Yes." He described in his own way what he had seen. "First, there come along some cavalrymen, and they burned the depot; then come along some infantry-men, and they tore up the track, and burned it;" and just before he left they had "sot fire to the well." The next morning, viz., the 27th, I rode down to the station, and found General Corse's division (of the Fifteenth Corps) engaged in destroying the railroad, and saw the well which my negro informant had seen "burnt." It was a square pit about twenty-five feet deep, boarded up, with wooden steps leading to the bottom, wherein was a fine copper pump, to lift the water to a tank above. The soldiers had broken up the pump, heaved in the steps and lining, and set fire to the mass of lumber in the bottom of the well, which corroborated the negro's description. [On the 3d of December Millen was reached, the army being yet in excellent condition, its wagons full of forage and provisions. Two-thirds of the distance to Savannah had been traversed. The remainder lay through a more sandy and barren country, where food was scarce, yet Sherman determined to push on for that city.] General Hardee was ahead, between us and Savannah, with McLaws' division, and other irregular troops, that could not, I felt assured, exceed ten thousand men. I caused the fine depot at Millen to be destroyed, and other damage done, and then resumed the march directly on Savannah, by the four main roads. The Seventeenth Corps (General Blair) followed substantially the railroad, and, along with it, on the 5th of December I reached Ogeechee Church, about fifty miles from Savannah, and found there fresh earthworks, which had been thrown up by McLaws' division; but he must have seen that both his flanks were being turned, and prudently retreated to Savannah without fight. All the columns then pursued leisurely their march towards Savannah, corn and forage becoming more and more scarce, but rice-fields beginning to occur along the Savannah and Ogeechee Rivers, which proved a good substitute, both as food and forage. The weather was fine, the roads good and everything seemed to favor us. Never do I recall a more agreeable sensation than the sight of our camps by night, lit up by the fires of fragrant pine-knots. The trains were all in good order, and the men seemed to march their fifteen miles a day as though it were nothing. No enemy opposed us, and we could occasionally hear the faint reverberation of a gun to our left rear, where we knew that General Kilpatrick was skirmishing with Wheeler's cavalry, which persistently followed him. But the infantry columns had met with no opposition whatsoever. McLaws' division was falling back before us, and we occasionally picked up a few of his men as prisoners, who insisted that we would meet with strong opposition at Savannah. On the 8th, as I rode along, I found the column turned out of the main road, marching through the fields. Close by, in the corner of a fence, was a group of men standing around a handsome young officer, whose foot had been blown to pieces by a torpedo planted in the road. He was waiting for a surgeon to amputate his leg, and told me that he was riding along with the rest of his brigadestaff of the Seventeenth Corps, when a torpedo trodden on by his horse had exploded, killing the horse and literally blowing off all the flesh from one of his legs. I saw the terrible wound, and made full inquiry into the facts. There had been no resistance at that point, nothing to give warning of danger, and the rebels had planted eight-inch shells in the road, with friction-matches to explode them by being trodden on. This was not war, but murder, and it made me very angry. I immediately ordered a lot of rebel prisoners to be brought from the provost-guard, armed with picks and spades, and made them march in close order along the road, so as to explode their own torpedoes, or to discover and dig them up. They begged hard, but I reiterated the order, and could hardly help laughing at their stepping so gingerly along the road, where it was supposed sunken torpedoes might explode at each step; but they found no other torpedoes till near Fort McAllister. That night we reached Pooler's Station, eight miles from Savannah, and during the next two days, December 9 and 10, the several corps reached the defences of Savannah,--the Fourteenth Corps on the left, touching the river, the Twentieth Corps next, then the Seventeenth, and the Fifteenth on the extreme right; thus completely investing the city. [The conclusion of the story of Sherman's exploits may be given in epitome. After the investment of Savannah, communication was established between the army and the fleet, and preparations were made for an assault upon the city, which Hardee, the Confederate commander, had refused to surrender. This was avoided by an evacuation, and on the 22d of December Savannah was surrendered to the army of invasion, thus completing the remarkable expedition, which had crossed several hundred miles of a hostile country almost without loss or resistance. By the various operations described the field of the war had been reduced to the Atlantic States, between Savannah on the south and Richmond on the north. Measures were at once taken to combine the armies of Sherman and Grant and crush out the remaining life of the Confederacy between their folds. It was Grant's design to transport Sherman's army by sea, but Sherman proposed the more difficult but more effective measure of a march overland. This was agreed to, and on the 1st of February, 1865, another long march through the heart of a hostile territory began. It was intended, as before, to live on the country, and very little baggage was taken. The army was sixty thousand strong. Beauregard was in command of the opposing forces, but no strong opposition was encountered. On the 17th Columbia, the capital of South Carolina, was reached and occupied. The city was burned. Wade Hampton, in command of the retreating Confederate cavalry, had set fire to a considerable quantity of cotton in the streets, and, in his efforts to destroy this, destroyed the city. Sherman had given orders to burn all public buildings, but the efforts of his soldiers were vainly directed to check the conflagration started by the enemy. On the next day Charleston, which had so long and so gallantly defended itself from assault by sea, fell without a blow in its defence, and the birthplace of the rebellion was once more in Union hands. It suffered as severely from its friends as Columbia had done. General Hardee, who commanded in that city, with fourteen thousand men, hastily retreated, lest he should be caught in a trap, as Pemberton had been at Vicksburg. Before doing so he set fire to every building containing cotton. Fire communicated from this to powder scattered in the street, and a train of flame ran to the powder-magazine, which blew up with a fearful explosion. Two hundred people were instantly killed, and a great portion of the city was burned. On the 8th of March the southern boundary of North Carolina was crossed, and that State entered. On the 11th Fayetteville was taken. Beauregard was now relieved, and Johnston again appointed to the command of the Confederate army. It was necessary to move more cautiously against this experienced commander. Several engagements took place, but the advance continued, and a line of occupation from Bentonville to Goldsborough was established by the 21st. The army had been reinforced by Schofield's corps from the West, with other reinforcements, and was now one hundred thousand strong. Having rested and refitted, Sherman's army marched again on April 10, destroying the railroad as it went. On the 14th the hostile march ended, news being received from the North that put an end to all further hostilities. General Lee had surrendered, and the war was at an end.]"
That's about as credible as you claiming that Lincoln never asserted white supremacy. In both cases documented words contradict you. Thus your assertions to the contrary are both dishonest and slothful. But go ahead. Spam away with your usual flood of irrelevant cut n pastes.
Here's a newsflash for you, Partisan. Sherman's troops didn't "live off the land" there. They stole what they needed at gunpoint from civilians and torched the rest. For that reason alone starvation in prison camps was in large part of Sherman's own making.
Captain George W. Nelson, Hanover Artillery (VA), CSA, prisoner at Fort Pulaski:
Not only were blankets and clothing not issued, but we were not allowed to receive what friends had sent us. We had only so much fuel as was needed for cooking. Can a more miserable state of existence be imagined than this? Starved almost to the point of death, a prey to disease, the blood in the veins so thin that the least cold sent a shiver through the whole frame!...Add to this the knowledge on our part that a few steps off were those who lived in plenty and comfort!
Captain Moses J. Bradford, 10th Missouri Infantry, CSA, prisoner at Fort Pulaski:
My health is very bad, I am very weak. We have been living on 10 ounces of meal and 4 ounces of Baker's Bread, and have only that per day. This is 15 days on it...O how I wish I had such as my dogs used to have...If you have not sent the money or things that [I] wrote to you for, you need not do so for we are not permitted to receive anything without permission of General Wessell.
Captain Henry Dickson, 2nd Virginia Cavalry, CSA, prisoner at Fort Pulaski:
Just think, you New England philanthropists, of four cooking stoves to quarters 200 yards long; over 100 windows without glass; the thermometer far below freezing; many of us sick, some without a single blanket, many with but one; all of us in threadbare clothes; ... prohibited from receiving money, clothes or food from our friends. Will your historians of this war admit that such things occurred in the United States?"
I would be surprised if Georgia plantations and farms didn't have food at the end of harvest. There were families and slaves to feed until next spring or summer. It was not like you could go down to the nearest Safeway or WinnDixie and buy a month's worth of food. Destroy the food stored for winter and you leave a people starving.
Perhaps the Federal soldier who wrote your material didn't gather anything but what his troops needed, but I don't think that was the case in general.
From The Augusta Chronicle:
In their route they [Sherman's troops]destroyed, as far as possible, all mills, cribs, and carried off all stock, provisions, and negroes, and when their horses gave out they shot them. At Canton they killed over 100. ... All along their route the road was strewn with dead horses, Farmers having devoted a large share of their attention to syrup making, there is a large quantity of cotton ungathere in the field, which was left by Federals, but there is not a horse or ox in the country, hence the saving of corn will be a difficult matter. At Madison, they broke open Oglesby's office and carried off all his medicines. ... The Federals expressed great astonishment at the rich country through which they were passing.On going to McCradle's place he [a Georgia legislator]found his fine house and ginhouse burned, every horse and mule gone, and in his lot 100 dead horses, that looked like good stock, that were evidently killed to deprive the planters of them.
...No farm on the road to the place, and as far as we hear from toward Atlanta, escaped their brutal ravages.
They ravaged the country below there to the Oconee River. The roads were strewn with the debris of their progress. Dead horses, cows, sheep, hogs, chicken, corn, wheat, cotton, books, paper, broken vessels, coffee mills, and fragments of nearly every species of property strewed the wayside.
...They gutted every store, and plundered more or less of everything. ... Many families have not a pound of meat or peck of meal or flour.
Sounds like the scenes of Federal plunder in Gods and Generals.
The War Department policy was to treat rebel detainees the same way that Union POW's were known to be treated. So what?
Walt
Did they have authorization to practice what they considered retaliation or were they simply out of control? Senator Henderson of Kansas asked:
"Permit me to ask...under what authority the retaliation practiced by General Foster, of which he speaks, was adopted before Congress acted on the subject. If Congress has entire power over the question and Congress has not directed retaliation to be exercised, how could an officer in the field undertake to say that he would retaliate in the way ... stated? ... never would I consent to the slow system of destroying life by starvation or by cruelty in any form.
Source: Immortal Captives by Mauriel Phillips Joslyn (a detailed and thorough book)
I have often claimed that Lincoln never asserted white spremacy, which is good, because it is true.
Abraham Lincoln --never-- asserted anything that could be called white supremacy.
What he DID do was advocate voting rights for black soldiers.
Walt
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