Posted on 06/06/2003 8:52:28 PM PDT by Batman58
I don't remember any other add ons or misleads. It always came across with Steve Forbes saying, 17% flat tax, thats it, thats all. I don't remember him saying anything about a VAT, and I know he supported privatizing social security.
Best Regards! Buckeroo
Every single dollar that comes into your pocket, regardless of origin, needs to be taxed up front and then you keep the rest.
Hmmmmm, why tax the contributors and producers of society as opposed to taxing on the basis of one's benefits from society?
- It is fairer to tax people on what they extract from the economy, as roughly measured by their consumption, than to tax them on what they produce for the economy, as roughly measured by their income
I think I would rather tax true consumption than continue with intrusive anal exams of family financial life.
Statis analysis.
Dynamic analysis would suggest the "fedgove" would receive more revenue, over time, because of the hugh increase in business activity from citizens having more of their money to spend.
It is known as the multiplier effect of money.
I will excuse you for thinking like a democrat and a RINO, this time.
. It always came across with Steve Forbes saying, 17% flat tax, thats it, thats all.
What one "says" on the presidential stump and what Congress is prepared to go with are often somewhat different, especially when significant detail is left out of the stump speech.
Problem is, an income tax whatever its flavor still requires Congress to separate "income" from return of capital. Forbes allowed for exemption upto $36k for a family of four, while he talked about repealing SS/Mediscare, that is up to Congress not him and we know how that goes.
There was nothing about the tax he stumped on that was not described in Armey's legislation and infact whenever asked what his tax would look like in legislative language he pointed to Armey's 17% flat tax as example.
See: Flat Tax as Seen by a Tax Preparer
by Vern Hoven
for a breakdown of how Forbes'/Armey/ ... Flat Income Tax would affect business.
Here's how tax rates come out for the Forbes/Hall/Armey/Shelby Flat Tax, a flat individual/corporate income tax, leaving all SS/Medicare, Federal Unemployment, excise taxes and tariffs in place and unchanged.
http://www.library.unt.edu/govinfo/subject/vital.html
- "The chart below shows a hypothetical set of flat tax rates and allowances that would result in revenue neutrality. This model, produced by the Congressional Budget Office shows that all federal income tax revenues could be fully replaced by a system with a flat tax rate of 13.1 percent and no deductions. Allowing total deductions for a family of four to reach $36,800 (more than double the amount allowed in 1995) would require a 19.9 percent rate."
Joint Economic Committee
Revenue Neutral Tax Rates for Alternative Allowances and Exemptions Under a Flat Tax Standard Allowances Option 1 Option 2 Option 3 Option 4 Option 5 Single $13,100 $13,100 $ 6,550 $ 6,550 $0 Joint $26,200 $26,200 $13,100 $13,100 $0 Head of Household $17,200 $17,200 $ 8,600 $ 8,600 $0 Dependent Exemption $ 5,300 $ 2,650 $ 5,300 $ 2,650 $0 Revenue Neutral Tax Rate 19.9% 19.4% 16.8% 16.3% 13.1% Source: Congressional Budget Office, 1995.
Under the "flat" tax, as it has been proposed,(HR1040 introduced 3/15/2001) a single person would pay:
7.65% ---- 7.65%(SS/Medicare) tax on wages/salary income below $13,600,
26.65% --- 19% + 7.65%(SS/Medicare) tax on wages/salary and other taxable income from $13,600-$75,000
20.45% --- 19% + 1.45% Medicare tax on wages/salaries and other taxable income from $75,001 up.
0% -------- on savings & bond income and stock dividends.
And that single person's business/employer pays,
19% ------ on earnings (Gross Receipts less allowed business deductions, exemptions and credits)
13.65% ---- 7.65% on SS/Medicare employment excises + 6% federally mandated unemployement excises levied on each employee's on wages up to $75,000.
7.45% ----- 1.45% on Medicare employment excises + 6% federally mandated unemployement excises levied on each employee's wages greater than $75,000.
Plus additional selective excises and tariffs dependant upon the nature of business engaged in.
Note: The base "Flat Tax Rate" is subject to meet revenue neutrality requirements under the Budget Enforcement act. The 19% rate stated in the Armey/Shelby Flat Tax proposal does not meet these requirements and would of necessity be adjusted upwards, and/or personal exemptions and business deductions be reduced to meet revenue neutrality criteria for enactment.
Further the Flat Tax is a VAT in the manner in which it transfers tax onto the consumer from business which is taxed at all stages of production and passed on to the consumer hidden in price of retail goods an services.
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/fullcomm/106cong/4-11-00/4-11kotl.htm
"Robert Hall, one of the originators of the proposal(Flat Tax), who describes his Flat Tax as, effectively, a Value Added Tax. A value added tax taxes output less investment (because firms get to deduct their investment.)"
"The Flat Tax differs from a VAT in only two respects. First, it asks workers, rather than firm managers, to mail in the check for the tax payment on that portion of output paid to them as wages. Second, it provides a subsidy to workers with low wages."
The Flat Income Tax (FIT) proposal, H.R. 1040, has two elements: a Flat Income Tax on an individual's earned income, and a VAT on businesses. The Flat Income Tax on businesses, is, by admission of Professors Robert E. Hall and Alvin Rabushka, who "wrote the book" on the FIT, a subtraction method Value Added Tax.
Quoting Hall and Rabushka ("The Flat Tax," Hoover Institution Press, 1995, pp55,56):
"To measure the total amount of income generated at a business, the best approach is to take the total receipts of the firm over the year and subtract the payments the firm has made to its workers and suppliers. This approach guarantees a comprehensive tax base. The successful value-added taxes in Europe work this way. The base for the business tax is the following:
Total revenue from sales of goods and services
less
purchases of inputs from other firms
less
wages, salaries, and pensions paid to workers
less
purchases of plant and equipment."
FReepers, the Flat Income Tax is a Value Added Tax in respect of business taxation. Professor Hall testified to that effect in a Ways and Means Committee Hearing in 1995 as well as in his book on the subject "The Flat Tax" in that same year; And it is an income tax in respect of individual taxation.
So, let us quit wasting bandwidth arguing about the Flat Income Tax. It combines a VAT with an income tax. Those of you who do not like VATs should not like the FIT. And those of you who do not like income taxes should not like the FIT, either.
You are Okay. I didn't mean to strain your keystrokes.
No strain, I got it down to a science now days :O)
So, America is as evil a tax-collector as any other nation around the world?
There are worse. Some just shoot you on sight on mere suspicion, and don't bother to wait for the cameras while they surround and burn you out.
It was better at one time in our history, At least George W. had to make the effort to call out the militia first to get his Still and Whiskey tax collected.
George Washington's Proclamation Whiskey Rebellion August 7, 1794:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/proclamations/gwproc03.htmGeorge Washington's address on October 20 1794
to General Lee at Bedford, PA
But that was rather early in the game and they didn't really have quite as much practice and things quite so organized as they do now, after 209 years under the Constitution.
Isn't progress wonderful?
Some All of the sales tax shills would like you to believe (as they and their hired economist do) that the income tax is multiplied through the supply chain of production (VAT)...You know 5% of the gross at each of 6 stages equals 30%, when actually it's still only 5% of the gross at the end...They can't seem to grasp that.
That's no tax up to $26,000...17% of everything over $26,000.
A married couple with no children earning $50,000 a yr. would pay just over $4,000 ...or LESS than 10% of their gross. The same couple with 2 children would pay less than $2500
The nice thing about the VAT tax is since each chain in the sales process gets a tax credit when he resales his product, the seller has every incentive to do an "on the table" deal, because he only gets his tax credit if the buyer pays the tax.
You forget it added at least an additional 65 cents to the price of goods an services for every dollar the government collects in the form of costs of compliance imposed on the business to do the accounting, planning, litigation, etc associated with a VAT.
That is not counting the fact that a tax hidden from the immediate view of the electorate tends to grow without bound fostering ever larger government.
Just how do you expect an electorate ignorant of the costs of largess and growing government to exercise "Eternal Vigilence", especially with horse blinders on in the hide-a-tax shell game of a VAT.
Yes I have very stong reservation about a VAT and its effects, looking to Europe and the growth of socialist government with such taxes as a prime example.
There is nothing "nice" at all about a tax with no natural brakes on it.
The Constitution is not about people, it is solely about government. A referendum is the submission of a proposed public measure and does not conflict with the Constitution.
The government was granted the power to directly tax the citizen by Amendment XVI.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
The government already has the power to enact and enforce a flat tax. All that need be quibbled over is the amount. Three or Four percent is more than adequate for the government to be able to meet all of its constitutional obligations. With ten percent the government would have enough to spend on all the corrupted and unconstitutional events our government thrives on.
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