Women and Islam--A Westerner's Perspective

"Oh, what *has* he said, except a general statement--"Muslim women have rights in Muslim countries"--?"

The author has taken the time to show that some of the 'facts' that get passed around this board - and other places - are misunderstandings and misrepresentations. And I'm glad he's done so.

The article might be 'shallow' by your standards, but he'd have to do a lot of writing to cover every permutation, or at least do the differences a lot of justice. You seem to have done some research into the matter, so I'm sure you can see what a colossal project that'd be?

This is as good a starting point as any, and much better than some I've seen. I guess I'm wondering what you're asking/expecting from him...?

J

What to expect? Well, some examples. Some stories. Samples from his conversations with these women. Under what circumstances did he have the conversations?

From my own reading, just managing a chat presents challenges, since women speaking, in public, to men not their relatives can get the women into trouble.

The author made only assertions that women in the ME had rights. Which rights? It certainly goes against all my reading on the subject of honor killings, arranged marriages, total dominance by fathers, brothers, husbands--

"What to expect? Well, some examples. Some stories. Samples from his conversations with these women."

I'd like to see that, too, to see what his experiences in the Kingdom, and now Qatar, have been like. I suspect that would have significantly lengthened the article, though? : )

"Under what circumstances did he have the conversations?"

I'd be curious to know how he pulled them off in the Kingdom, myself. But it happens - this I know.

Speaking for myself: I've worked at an all-girl's university's library, and now a more 'western' - but still predominantly Muslim - co-ed uni. Chances for good conversation practically drop into your lap.

"From my own reading, just managing a chat presents challenges, since women speaking, in public, to
men not their relatives can get the women into trouble."

It depends where you are, and what your relation to the woman in question is.

Suffice it to say that if you work with the people in question, or there's a teacher/student relationship, there's no problem as long as everyone respects one another's boundaries. But if I, as a western man, walked up to a gaggle of ladies in a shopping mall and started trying to ask one of them out, there would be hell to pay.

"The author made only assertions that women in the ME had rights. Which rights? It certainly goes
against all my reading on the subject of honor killings, arranged marriages, total dominance by
fathers, brothers, husbands--"

Well let me ask this: what HAVE you been reading?

What you have seen is true, but it is - as the author pointed out - more to do with local customs, or plain old-fashioned mysogyny, that have survived in spite of Islam (or, worse, been co-opted into it unofficially) rather than part of Islam, itself. It's a part of the picture that cannot be pooh-poohed or excused, but it's not the end-all and be-all of the situation.

J

Perhaps you are enjoying the phenom of seeing a nation from the point of view of the honored guest. They say Castro is charming, too, and many enjoy his courtesies first-hand. It's hard to criticize when one is petted.

Or perhaps it's the romance and exoticism of all those veils? The pleasure of living where women must truly behave themselves?

Don't know too many ME followers of Islam, myself, except for a couple of folks who moved here...one girl was ostracized by her family for being a single working woman in America, the other is being forced back to Pakistan for an arranged marriage.

I suppose there is that nostalgia for when women truly knew their place, hiding under blankets and not daring to drive. Sometimes I do remember some of that old feminism of my youth.

I taught some Saud princelings and Iranians at the college level, and then waited tables for them at a family pub in the same town. I never could understand the way they looked at me--though I was younger at the time and used to my share of attention, there was nothing wholesome in the way they looked at me. Shudder. Sort of "first I'll &^% you, then I'll kill you."

They don't like women.

"Perhaps you are enjoying the phenom of seeing a nation from the point of view of the honored guest. They say Castro is charming, too, and many enjoy his courtesies first-hand. It's hard to criticize when one is petted."

*ahem* : /

I am not an honored guest. I am certainly NOT petted, here. And it's pretty rude of you to insinuate that.

As a Western expatriate who is not a Muslim, I have it better than some of the other non-national folks who come here to work. But I am still, at best, a second-class citizen. If there's ever a question between my word or welfare, and that of a national, there's no question - I've already lost.

"Or perhaps it's the romance and exoticism of all those veils? The pleasure of living where women must truly behave themselves?"

Again, you're just being insulting. If you knew anything about me, you'd know that's about as far from me as you get.

I respect Islam, and I respect the culture of the people who live in the UAE. I don't AGREE with all of it, but I can see how they feel and - to some degree - why they feel that way. I respect their boundaries and as long as they respect mine, too, things are cool.

Would I like to see a day when things here are more like they are back at home (read: "more people just like me")? Yes. Who doesn't?

But it's not my place to make them change to fit my views any more than it's theirs to make me change to fit theirs. That's liberalism, and one conservative principle that I hold very highly is that people have to find their own destiny. You can't shove the future onto people. Real, substantive change has to come from within.

The best thing I can do, then, is try to act as a positive role model: to provide a non-muslim, western face they can respect and relate to, rather than another red-faced lout trying to "save" them from their own culture.

"I suppose there is that nostalgia for when women truly knew their place, hiding under blankets and not daring to drive. Sometimes I do remember some of that old feminism of my youth."

Yet another insult. Bleah. : P

Why are you carrying on like this with me? Is it because you don't have any real answers to the questions I posed, or because you don't like my answers to your comments and questions?

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I'd appreciate some respect.

J

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