Posted on 06/02/2003 1:46:54 PM PDT by Heartlander
Depends on what you mean by "needs Darwinism". Except in light of the theory of evolution, there is no rationally accessible explanation for why mitochondria have their own DNA.
No, that is of course, not what I referred to when I asked "How does the attempt to obviate God by overextending what we may imagine and/or research of evolution provide unique impetus for the research you cite?"
In that case, I think will need some specific examples of what you have in mind before I can begin to formulate an answer for you.
Thank you for relating these facts and your perspectives. It's good that at least those scientists are scientific enough to record their results, even when they drop them in order to go on with what supports theories of and hopes for spontaneous transitions.
I'm going to take my mother to the stores now.
Besides, I think we've made our points in this thread, well enough. Think so? There's still a bit of a weekend out there for me.
None of this requires anyone who believes about God only what is revealed in the Bible and by the Holy Spirit, for example to rethink the nature of God the Creator. Did someone tell you it would?
Is the book of Genesis literally true? Some folks think it is - I suspect that they will have little choice but to rethink what they mean by "God the Creator", or be forced to simply ignore the ever-evolving truth. If it turns out that belief in the book of Genesis as a literal account of creation is not tenable, is that God's fault? Or theirs?
I agree, Phaedrus. For one thing, the "law" of natural selection explains that species select for the fitness required to survive the negative impacts of environmental change. What the law seems to overlook, however, is that a certain species -- that would be man -- shapes the environment in turn by his decisions and behavior. One might say that man affects his environment about as much as he is affected by it. Certainly the cultural effects of "social[ized] Darwinism" indicated in my earlier reply would be cases in point.
I find it interesting that Erasmus Darwin, Charles' father, articulated another insight in his own work on a theory of evolution. He maintained, not so much that man to some extent "determines" his environment in the sense indicated above, but that human fitness increases, not as a result of blind chance, but because a man can will, and has the capacity, to change in order to adjust to environmental change.
It's easy to see why C. Darwin's theory "succeeded" while E. Darwin's theory "failed": The former was far more in sympathy with materialist opinion -- which was the regnant doctrine of the 19th century (and seemingly still is in many quarters) -- and the latter was not.
So I'm not the first person to doubt that "natural selection" is the only driver of evolution. Stephen Wolfram recently suggested another supplementary idea, and got his head handed to him....
It is actually true in its context. When Christians believe other things than the way God in his integrity meant the truth to be literally related to man, yes, they need to rethink.
However, God being far trickier and not only all powerful (expressed however He as chosen in this universe of limits) but all subtle, the jury is still out as to how all actually got here and that includes any theory of evolution as well as any other theory (and we haven't even come up with a systematic working theory, so it's best to say it isn't even a matter of testing our theory at present --likely to me it will never be). Even then, one must ask the question, "Got here from our perspective, or from His?"
What things God can do in what can be related by the word "day," for example, is unfathomable for us, especially when he can operate on the natural world from outside of its natural limitations.
Goodness & wellness
I think we're talking past each other a bit. An honest investigation into the origins and development of life is what produced the theory of evolution in its current form. You already have what you're asking for, in the form of evolution.
...vs. Charles Darwin's Darwinism, which the "intellectual community" has taken up and run out of the stadium of reason with, in order to shield themselves against God.
But as you say, the two are not the same, and one has nothing to do with the other. The fact that some have taken the theory of evolution and perverted it for their own purposes has nothing to do with the theory itself, and especially has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of biological evolution.
There is no such thing as a process of bringing man about that did not have His intention. To tell people otherwise is both an attempt to lie against God and to murder the person.
So then you would agree that someone who thinks that a "day" in Genesis can only mean a literal 24-hour day, precisely as we understand "day" to mean to us, might have to rethink his conception of God if such a literal interpretation turns out to be contradicted by the evidence around us?
Yes, this is the very point that's so often evaded here. Sometimes I wonder whether Charles Darwin himself, if were alive today, would approve of the usages to which his thought has been put by the ensuing generations.
As the story goes, Charles never read his father's book on evolution until very late in life, long after Erasmus had passed away. He is said to have expressed satisfaction, even delight, in the fact that he and his father's works were so very similar on key points.
But in our generation, Erasmus's theory is rejected out of hand. Still, I think the issues he raised are quite serious ones and worthy of fair consideration. Why is this so resisted?
Well, yes of course - that was my original point. I'd say if there is an isomorphism (of some reasonably high level of precision) between system S1 performing process P1 to another system S2 doing process P2 and we classify S1 as alive then S2 should also be so classified. It is the structure that is important.
it's entirely accurate and fair to describe a volcanic eruption as a "process",
Again yes, but it is a very simple process. Not much more complex really than the hydrologic cycle.
My CPU has more transistors than IBM has employees - is it alive, based solely on its complexity?
100,000,000 transistors all the same isn't complex. Granted that's an exaggeration (they're not all the same) but not a large one. The CPU would fail other criteria too. For example, it can't process without an environment of complexity similar to itself while living things maintain themselves by metabolizing simple inputs.
You keep making these false claims even though you have been corrected before. If you cannot even state evolutionary theory correctly, the rest of your posts become suspect.
I don't focus on biology much. All I can say about this is that insertions and deletions in the DNA of progeny lead to new structure and function though the aciton of the new proteins created. There is also redundancy and a repair process that takes place to maintain the integraty of the DNA code. When I normally look at these things it's in reference to human immunology and in that case it's limited to gaining a general understanding. In that field there is even rearrangement of DNA that is involved in distinguishing between self and other. Most of it I have forgotten(CRS).
As far as stating it in plain language. That can't be done. As far as simplistic explainations go, some fair ones can be found on the web. As far as bio and med knowledge on the web though, I've discovered it's extremely lacking, or theirs a steep charge. Realistically the only way to get a grasp on these things is to read a good text. The amount of data and processes is fantastically huge and you'd need a solid grasp of chemistry to understand it. I can only recommend a text: Biochemistry, 2ed. by Voet and Voet from Wiley. In general Wiley and Saunders are publishers of excellent texts written by authors that understand the material very well to present it in a very well organized fashion. I'm sure my cell bio text is outdated, so...
spunkets said: Your statement indicates you are not familiar with molecular biology and the mechanics of genetics. If you were, you would not have said that.
"You must realize that this is an appeal to authority, an approach that I reject. Again, please state the case in plain language. The physicists do it all the time.
I'm not an authority, just someone that's been there. Perhaps there is someone who is an authority, but that someone could only give a summary of facts and conclusions. That summary wouldn't give the insight that's needed to understand it. It is truely a time consuming endeavor to do that, it takes many years. Just to make sure you know I'm still focusing on the processes that lead to evolution-simple genetics won't give you the whole story. You have to be able to visualize the whole, not just the DNA. Otherwise your just taking the conclusions and claims of an expert.
If it was a physics ?, I could probably give a short answer. Questions in biology though involve complex and extended interactions. They can be simple, but are lengthy in scope. If anyone is really serious about making an educated decision on whether evolution actually happened and continues to do so, they really would have to study the real mat'l, it won't be found on the web, popularized books, or in a short time. Without that effort though, it can't be dismissed out of hand.
Let's see. The citric acid cycle oxidizes fuel and produces energy, fire oxidizes fuel and produces energy, therefore if cells are alive, fire is alive. Additionally, the simplicity of the combustion process suggests that fire is an evolutionary precursor to more complex oxidizers like cells. ;)
100,000,000 transistors all the same isn't complex. Granted that's an exaggeration (they're not all the same) but not a large one.
How about: "100,000,000 transistors people all the same isn't complex. Granted that's an exaggeration (they're not all the same) but not a large one." So I guess any aggregate collection of people, like, say, IBM, isn't that complex either.
The CPU would fail other criteria too. For example, it can't process without an environment of complexity similar to itself while living things maintain themselves by metabolizing simple inputs.
Unless you're synthesizing your own food from CO2 and sunlight, I suspect that your inputs are at least as chemically complex as you are. And your environment too ;)
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