Europe Returning to Pagan Roots

NewsMax ^ | May 30, 2003 | Fr. Mike Reilly

[TheAngryClam]

The "Christians in the Arenas" was largely myth. Christians were much more likely to meet other forms of execution/enslavement.

My personal favorite is crucifixion followed by igniting them as human torches.

[ArneFufkin]

Thanks for your input.

[Destro]

Your a little out of your league--The Emperor replaced Patriarchs -- he did not serve as one-Constatnine did not set rules--he called a council of Bishops to do it- The Pope WAS king of the Papal states AND reserved the right to depose of Latin Catholic Kings at will. And I said the Protestants later on went to emulate the Byzantine model.

[RobbyS]

And yet billions of Jews, Christians and Muslims claim him as their spiritual ancestor. The essential thing is the personal relationship with the God of Abraham.

[TheAngryClam]

If God the Father can even be considered the same as the god of the mountaintop.

[RobbyS]

The Roman law was not codied at all until the 3rd Century; the code of Justinian was a summary of all previous codes. But it IS the basis of the civil law.

[ffusco]

Christianity was tolerated for the most part along with dozens of other "new" cults in Rome. The Christians that were persecuted behaved just like The anti-war protesters, Greenpeace, the ACLU and Peta. They opennly disrupted government, tax collection and public works. In short they were Terrorists though their cause seems just today.

[ffusco]

Well if by codified you mean conveniently written down instead of scattered on epitaphs,entablatures and pediments and in a well understood rhetorical tradition- then you are correct.

The Roman Constitution which predated Byzantium by a few centuries is a model for our own Constitution- 3 branches, checks and balances, suffrage etc.- and was never writen down until late in the empire.

[ArneFufkin]

What jealousies of Rome caused the Christian Protest? Slavery? Rape? Kidnapping? Robbery? Torture?

Bunch of Christbot malcontents.

[ffusco]

Read my last post, I did not Chritsian bash- I said their cause seems just to us. However they were anti-establishment and they were dealt with accordingly. They were not persecuted merely for being Christain, they were persecuted because they were inciting sedition. Particularly the Jews who refused to Render unto Ceaser.

[RobbyS]

The notion of the Renaissance as a "restoration " of classical society is a myth. In fact it can be question whether there was such a thing as the Renaissance, at least as a historical epoch. It might be said that in many ways the "medieval " civilization endured until the 19th century and the creation of modern urban culture. The scientific and technological developments of the 17th and 18th centuries didnot suddenly apear but were the result of hubdreds of years of development, beginning with simple but crucial inventions as the mechanical clock.

[Kerberos]

”I still find it amazing that anyone is surprised, historically speaking, that such a "church" turned out to be tyrannical.”

It really is not surprising. I’m sure the people were sold on the idea that it was “God’s Will” in one form or another.

”And when the immigrants of the 19th and 20th century came here (the large majority Catholic), it was to escape political-statist oppression of the kind that killed priests, burned churches, and attempted to control religious leaders.”

That’s not really hard to understand as from a historic perspective the relationship between the church and state has always been that sometimes the church is on top, sometimes the state is on top, and sometimes they share power and control equally. In the example you cited obviously, the state had the upper hand. That is why it has always be patently obvious to me that a relationship between that state and church is not, in the long run, in the best interest of either party. Nevertheless, they usually have been joined to establish greater control over their populations. I was always under the impression that conservatives wanted less control, as that is what the concept of individualism was about.

”I guess that's why strong churches grew up so quickly in the United States?

The reason churches grew up so quickly is because they were the social hub of the community and provided needed community services. That fact that they where Christian churches should come as no surprise as what other religions did the people know of? Christianity was the religion of their parents, and their parents, parents, etc., it was simply the religion that was handed down to them.

Which is why it has always fascinated me the some people construe that because the words “God” and “Their Creator” , which many religions have a concept of God and a Creator in them and are pretty generic terms, that it meant that this country was interned to be a Christian nation. The DOI and Constitution contains principles of law, politics, philosophy, and so on that were well beyond the grasp of the average man at the time. And considering that the majority of the people of the time were literate it should come as no surprise that the founders choose to frame the Constitution within a somewhat religious framework as the average man could understand the sermon, they had been attending one every week for probably most of their lives.

However, it seems to me that if the founders had indented for the country to be a Christian nation they would have worded the 1st amendment to reflect such intention. While most of the people were not aware of other religions of the world, many of the founders were. Particularly Islam and Buddhism. One can therefore only assume that the founders must have not felt the necessity of establishing this country as a Christian nation because they had concluded that other religions would never reach our shores. And seeing how they were, for the most part, pretty forward thinking in their reasoning it is particularly difficult to arrive at that conclusion. I suppose that one could conjecture that since the freedom of religion clause was the 1st Amendment written, they were not fully up to speed yet.

[RobbyS]

You forget that the Constitution did not create a nation but a government. The original document set up the original framework of the federal government and defined its powers. There already existed thirteen state governments, many of which retained state churches. Each retained the common law of England which was very Christian in its roots and orientation. The people generally regarded themselves as Christian, although it would not be until the first half of the 19th Century that they became active churhgoers and evangelical Protestantism became in everything but law the established religion of the country.Until the 1960s, the elite of the national remained Protestant Christian. Most of the immigrants who came to the United States were Catholic, but enough were assimilated that the percentage of Catholic has never risen above 25%. In the last generation, the elite has become agnostic, a development reflected in the decisions of the Supreme Court, which is THE elite institution" in the country.

[Skywalk]

You misinterpret my post. I'm not saying that Christianity had no impact, only that the behavior of the nobility and the royalty REMAINED often brutal throughout the next several hundred years.

BTW, I've read estimates that as few as 3-4,000 Christians were killed by Romans, far fewer than the popular culture would have you believe. I'm more than willing, however, to read counter-estimates.

[Skywalk]

BINGO!

This idea that Christian communities were simply rounded up is not true, as far as I've read. Indeed many Christians at that time acted against the State and the public. In fact, didn't they also desecrate others' temples among their acts of vandalism and destruction? That's not going to win you the hearts and minds of Roman authorities, that's for sure.

And the numbers of Christians killed by Rome still remains quite small.

[Tribune7]

I hope the U.K. can find away of getting out of this thing.

[ffusco]

Fratre!

[ffusco]

5st State?

Welcome!

[Tribune7]

I thought Germany already tried the return-to-paganism thing in the 1930s and '40s.

They did. The eastern part of that country made a tenacious attempt at denying the existence of any god between '45 and '89. It seems like some never learn.

[ffusco]

For the most part Christians didn't want to pay taxes or use the propor honorarium to address the Emperor.

Though they had no problems with the tyranny of flush toilets, the daily bath, the rule of law, private property, banking and mortgages, free bread, and other benefits.