It?s Sweepstime For Hitler, But Winter for Truth (The CBS Hitler Miniseries IS a Bush-Hate Lie)

The New York Observer ^ | May 12, 2003 | Ron Rosenbaum

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

I don't get your point. I couldn't be bothered to watch something that seemed as trivialized as this. I've read copiously on Hitler and the Thrid Reich. Actually I'm a feeling motivated to read the reviewer's book. In my experience, almost any TV miniseries is just Godawful. ("I, Claudius" was pretty cool but the book was better, The PBS/Ken Burns "Civil War" was evocative, visiting the battle sites is better.)

I suspected that the only reason CBS would be running a series on Hitler was to "warn" us about the dangers posed by Bush, I just hoped I was wrong and it might be a serious examination of the man and his time. (The ads for it were not promising.)

Who needs CBS? The History Channel runs 10 better, more intellectually honest programs on the Third Reich every week.

[Petronski]

Yes, he was, on both counts. And it's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. And no, I'm not debating you, I'm telling you. Hitler stated same in mein Kampf.

Citation please.

[DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet]

I did try to watch this show last night, but I fell asleep before the end. I'd give anything to know how it came out. ;-)

Well, see, there was this REALLY bad guy they called "Bush", and his evil henchman "Ashcroft", and they had an evil plan...

[Archimedes2000]

Mein Kampf. Chapter 12. Hitler states the NSDAP was created as a party of the EXTREME LEFT.

Hitler also states in Mein Kampf that the color red chosen for the NSDAP flag was deliberate, indicative of their socialist programs. You can read Mein Kamp on-line at
www.hitler.org ( a museum, not a "nazi" site)

You may also want to read a few National Socialist campaign documents, where the Nazi's reached out to their primary recruits, the communists, urging them to leave one Red Flag for the other.

HAIL, MOSCOW! (1927)

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/angrif08.htm

COMMUNISTS! JOIN US! HELP US BUILD THE PEOPLE'S STATE!

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/liste8.htm

WE ARE SOCIALISTS BECAUSE....

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/haken32.htm

[Archimedes2000]

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch12.html

>>>The fact that millions bear in their hearts the desire for a basic change in the conditions obtaining today proves the deep discontent under which they suffer. It expresses itself in thousandfold manifestations with one in despair and hopelessness, with another in ill will, anger, and indignation; with this man in indifference, and with that man in furious excesses. As witnesses to this inner dissatisfaction we may consider those who are weary of elections as well AS WELL AS THE MANY WHO TEND TO THE MOST FANATICAL EXTREME OF THE LEFT.

THE YOUNG MOVEMENT WAS INTENDED TO APPEAL TO THESE LAST.<<<<

You may also find thi instructive

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/

>>>13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises. <<<<<

[chilepepper]

BZZZZT! WRONG ANSWER!

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)

[Scenic Sounds]

Well, see, there was this REALLY bad guy they called "Bush", and his evil henchman "Ashcroft", and they had an evil plan...

You know, I think that cynicism has something to do with that "special" sense of humor that we seem to share. ;-)

[Petronski]

Mein Kampf. Chapter 12. Hitler states the NSDAP was created as a party of the EXTREME LEFT.

Where?

Hitler also states in Mein Kampf that the color red chosen for the NSDAP flag was deliberate, indicative of their socialist programs.

From Mein Kampf:

We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left, so as to arouse their attention and tempt them to come to our meetings--if only to break them up--so that in this way we got a chance of talking to the people.

[chilepepper]

What people forget about the relation between Communist USSR and Nazi Germany is how *CLOSE* these buddies were before the war.

The LUFTWAFFE trained secretly in USSR in the mid thirties to circumvent the WWI disarmament accords.

There were EXTENSIVE interchange programs between the Wehrmacht and the Soviet Army.

Many believe the Jewish Holocaust was inspired by Soviets (along with the Turkish genocide of the Armenians)when the Germans observed how world opinion ignored the Soviet Pogroms and in particular, the state run starvation of the kulak -- the Ukranian Holocaust where millions died.

[chilepepper]

The map is not the territory

a profound admonishment, which i first came across in r.a.wilson's prometheus rising, which he attributed to timothy leary (both of these authors being far more interesting than i thought from their media caricatures permeating the info-mass)

[Diva]

Beginning to get the Ed Gernon analogy? In case there's any doubt how we're supposed to read it, check out the way Hitler's words on the scene at the Reichstag fire are altered by the CBS "docudrama."

About 8 years ago I started researching the connections between certain Christian Reconstructionists, Catholic Charismatics, and Dominionist Pentecostals. In order to obtain information about these guys I was introduced to a man who was one of the first Catholic Charismatics, and later shunned by the community he was once associated with. He has a very large library devoted to what he considers to be a world-wide conspiracy involving the usual suspects, Masons, Illuminati, religious leaders, etc. But, his library is amazing for what it contains. He has everything from Anton LeVay's Satanic Bible to the writings of the Church Fathers, (the bad stuff as well as the good). He also has an original copy of a book written in the early 1930s which was a warning about Hitler, I've seen the book but cannot remember the name.

My friend (I don't buy into his conspiracy theory), is convinced that the Promise Keepers, (remember them?), used the tactics of the Nazi Party in some of their Rallies. He has pictures of Promise Keeper events and Nazi events that are staged in a similar fashion complete with an Iron Cross; disguised at the Promise Keeper rally, as a large poster suspended over the stage having four men's fists coming together as a show of unity. What is symbolic to my friend is the area between the fists which outlines the Iron Cross.

If you haven't already guessed my friend is a liberal who is convinced that the Republicans are either directing or being used by Christian Dominionists to take over the world.

All this can be viewed as pretty laughable except for the reality that a good portion of the information he has, (primary source material from Catholic Charismatic Renewal) is being used by those on the Left (Carville), to bolster their case against the "Religious Right" comparing them to the Nazis.

While it has been a favorite past-time for many years for groups to use the Nazis as an odious comparison I have grown more alarmed in recent years that this comparison is being used more and more against Christians. I suspect the left is convinced that Bush's use of Christian terms is further evidence of his "rise to evil."

[maica]

Well, see, there was this REALLY bad guy they called "Bush", and his evil henchman "Ashcroft", and they had an evil plan...

I think a poll of Freepers taken before the show started, would have concluded that this would be the ending.

I watched the first two hours (not my my choice) and can only add to this discussion my belief that Very Few people will be able to stay awake for the second two hours.

We must remember, though, that taking the time to produce, direct and act in such productions - which are propaganda of the Left - is a measure of the intensity which the Left fears the power of the current Administration.

[grumple]

bump

[kiwiexpat]

You're engaging in a fantasy about Hitler being a socialist. Socialists don't believe in social class and distinctions based on race, or gender. Hitler certainly did believe in these distinctions. He hated Marxists because he though they were all Jews. He hated communism because he thought that it was an attempt by the Jews to dominate the world. He fear that Russia's fate would be Germany's.

"The danger to which Russia succumbed is always present for Germany. Only a bourgeois simpleton is capable of imagining that Bolshevism has been exorcised. With his superficial thinking he has no idea that this is an instinctive process; that is, the striving of the Jewish people for world domination, a process which is just as natural as the urge of the Anglo-Saxon to seize domination of the earth. And just as the Anglo-Saxon pursues this course in his own way and carries on the fight with his own weapons, likewise the Jew. He goes his way, the way of sneaking in among the nations and boring from within, and he fights with his weapons, with lies and slander, poison and corruption, intensifying the struggle to the point of bloodily exterminating his hated foes. In Russian Bolshevism we must see the attempt undertaken by the Jews in the twentieth century to achieve world domination. Just as in other epochs they strove to reach the same goal by other, though inwardly related processes. Their endeavor lies profoundly rooted in their essential nature. No more than another nation renounces of its own accord the pursuit of its impulse for the expansion of its power and way of life, but is compelled by outward circumstances or else succumbs to impotence due to the symptoms of old age, does the Jew break off his road to world dictatorship out of voluntary renunciation, or because he represses his eternal urge. He, too, will either be thrown back in his course by forces lying outside himself, or all his striving for world domination will be ended by his own dying out. But the impotence of nations, their own death from old age, arises from the abandonment of their blood purity. And this is a thing that the Jew preserves better than any other people on earth. And so he advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer."

German industrialists bankrolled Hitler's rise to power.

[Wallace T.]

You stated: "Socialists don't believe in social class and distinctions based on race or gender." That statement is true of (most) Marxist socialists, but not all socialists are Marxists. Even so, there have been many instances of national persecution by Marxist regimes. Even today, the Marxist dictator of Zimababwe is sttempting to drive the reamining whites from his nation. Stalin slaughtered and relocated numerous national and ethnic groups: Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Chechens, Volga Germans, Ukranians, at a cost of untold millions of lives. Of course, the Bolsheviks killed, enslaved, or dispossessed members of these groups because of their opposition to Communism and not because of their race per se. It makes no difference if you are being killed by a Communist for being bourgeois instead of by a Nazi for being non-Aryan. You are just as dead. (FWIW, Karl Marx at times made derogatory remarks about Jews and blacks.)

As I indicated previously, not all socialists are Marxists. There were, for instance, the idealist socialists who founded communities such as New Harmony, Indiana or La Reunion, Texas. In the case of La Reunion, located close to Dallas, some of these socialists owned slaves. The Shaker movement in the Northeast, which was communal in nature, maintained strict divisions between the sexes. There have been Catholic socialists, such as Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement. Liberation theology is an attempt to meld Marxist ideas on class warfare with liberal Catholic or apostate Protestant theology. Obviously, such people lack the materialist and atheist beliefs of the Communists. Yet they are socialists and identify themselves as such.

Socialism is defined by the economist Ludwig von Mises and others as government ownership and control of the means of production and distribution. Naziism and all other "Third Way" systems, such as democratic socialism, the fascist corporate state, and modern liberalism, are not pure socialism, as private ownership exists in large portions of the economy. Unlike socialism, these systems permit the necessary business calculations that allow for rational business planning. They also maintain elements of financial and personal reward for hard work and wise investment. However, businesses are subject to the directives of the civil government and its planners. They take different forms: heavy taxes, labor laws, price and wage controls, environmental regulations, quotas on production, etc. The effect of such directives is to assert the supremacy of the political leadership over the business community and society generally. The politicians are saying: we are not Communists but we can and will exercise what control we feel is needed. (Indeed, mainland China has over the last 20 years morphed from a purely socialist system to a "Third Way" type economy. The Communist Party remains in power and there is little civil liberty, but it appears the Chinese leadership recognizes that "Third Way" managed capitalism is far more efficient than pure socialism.)

As for the industrialists supporting Hitler, it is hardly surprising that a small clique of wealthy men would favor a strongman running a centralized government for their benefit. From the Middle Ages through the 18th Century, many aristocrats and wealthy commoners favored mercantilism (an early version of the Third Way) because it excluded foreign competitors and restricted access to capital and businesses to potential business rivals. Given Hitler's militaristic plans, it is little wonder that steelmakers like Krupp and other members of Germany's military industrial complex supported him, at least after he attained state power.

It must be remembered that some businessmen and bankers backed the Communist regime. Foreign financing, mostly German, funded the Bolsheviks during the October Revolution. A number of American and Western European businessmen cooperated with the new Communist regime, especially in its "New Economic Policy" phase, by investing in the USSR. These investors included Henry Ford, who built a tractor plant in Russia and British, Dutch, and American energy companies, which helped develop the Soviet oil fields. (Refer to Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony Sutton for further details on the support of the Soviet Union from American and Western European capitalists.)

From an American standpoint, limited government (including states' rights and division of powers), individual liberty, and private property, are our heritage. We are not a political system rooted in the "throne and altar" or "blood and honor" ideologies of the European Right. American conservatism is fundamentally libertarian, or, more properly, classical liberal. Thus, all systems that advocate central control of the economy and society, whether Communist, Nazi, or any other variant of the "Third Way," are leftist to one degree or another. Naziism and Communism are not polar opposites, but members of the same family of statist political systems.

[kiwiexpat]

Thanks for adding some clarity to this debate. I agree with your interpretation. Attempts by revisionists to label Hitler as a socialist are incongruent with the man's ideology and the history of the Third Reich. No serious historian or political scientist that I can think of argues that Hitler was socialist.

P.S. Henry Ford invested heavily in Germany during the Third Reich before the war.

[Wallace T.]

The Communist economic system, as exercised in the USSR, Eastern Europe, etc., is command and control. The Nazi economic system was dirigist. Mixed economies retain many elements of a free market economy and are thus more efficient than socialist nations, which lack an effective means of establishing wages and prices for goods and services. Maoist China, which was strictly socialist, was an economic basket case that could not feed its own population, despite having 80% of its work force in the farm sector. Post-Maoist China, with its "socialist market" economy, has become an economic powerhouse, far oustripping the other East Asian "tigers."

Where I disagree with many historians is in their characterization of Nazi Germany as a capitalist nation. It was a mixed state/private economy - neither purely capitalist nor purely socialist. Marxist ideology holds imperialism and fascism/Naziism as being the final, decadent phase of capitalism before the inevitable triumph of socialism. This belief is far from the truth. The European colonial empires (except for the Second British Empire in its early phase) and the non-Communist authoritarian states of pre-World War II Europe were marked by restrictions on free markets, state protection afforded to certain industries favored by the political elite, and frequent and intrusive government intervention in the marketplace. These systems stand on the same side as Marxism, in opposition to the free market economy. The Marxist-influenced belief that Naziism and similar systems were exemplars of unvarnished capitalism is as addled as the Nazi belief that Communism was a Jewish plot to rule the world.

[John Lenin]

Let's not forget how the left rewrote history referring to Hitler and the NAZI's (National Socialists) as right-wingers. Do they mention how Hitler was a LEFTIST, in the doculiary ? And that Hitler surrounded himself with a bunch of homosexuals.

[John Lenin]

As for the industrialists supporting Hitler, it is hardly surprising that a small clique of wealthy men would favor a strongman running a centralized government for their benefit. From the Middle Ages through the 18th Century, many aristocrats and wealthy commoners favored mercantilism (an early version of the Third Way) because it excluded foreign competitors and restricted access to capital and businesses to potential business rivals.

Warren Buffet comes to mind.

[Archimedes2000]

>>>Where?<<<

I already demonstrated where. I provided you with the link anf Hitler's written word. Read more carefully.

And thank you for demonstrating that Hitler's party made every attempt to attract the Left to their meetings, even if the communists initially came only to break up the meetings.

After all, this was their best recruitment tool. As Hitler stated, as long as they got the chance to talk to them...