Where Are the Great Southern Leaders of Old?

ToogoodReports.com ^ | 05/15/2003 | Lee R. Shelton IV

[WhiskeyPapa]

He repeated that in a message to Congress in 1862: "I cannot make it any better known than it already is that I strongly favor colonization." Like you said, that's not what we learned in the history books in school."

Funny that DiLorenzo would single out this one sentence from Lincoln's 12/01/62 address, which was very lengthy, but ended:

"Fellow-citizens, we cannot escape history. We of this Congress and this administration, will be remembered in spite of ourselves. No personal significance, or insignificance, can spare one or another of us. The fiery trial through which we pass, will light us down, in honor or dishonor, to the latest generation. We say we are for the Union. The world will not forget that we say this. We know how to save the Union. The world knows we do know how to save it. We -- even we here -- hold the power, and bear the responsibility. In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free -- honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just -- a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless."

Lincoln said the slave should have freedom. He -never- advocated that anyone should be forced out of the country.

But that is a little inconvenient for DiLorenzo.

Walt

[JohnGalt]

'But that is a little inconvenient for DiLorenzo.'

If you are implying DiLorenzo has a secret agenda or sloppy that is your prerogative, I just happen to think he wrote a narrative that makes a lot of sense to true anti-Federalists. You are behaving as simply a polemic for the 'opposite point of view' hence the dubious link to a high school senior's essay.

Time will test DiLorenzo's 'thesis,' and perhaps within the decade a Federalist, perhaps like yourself, will challenge the McPherson grip on Federalist scholarship (and dominance) of the period. DiLorenzo, as a true Jeffersonian (who like any true Jeffersonian believes Jefferson was a sell out to the allure of power) provides simply one interpretation.

[Constitution Day]

Ash Alert

It does, doesn't it?
I haven't thought of that in a long time...reminds me of my lurker days.

[Constitution Day]

Worthwhile to note that the last two quotes were made AFTER Americans were dying in Iraq.

BUMP!

[The Iguana]

I have been doing some more digging, and I have had only limited success on the Lee quote to Governor Stockdale.

David Dieteman and Donald Miller over at LR also reference the quote, and say it comes from Charles Adams - but I have not been able to find any such reference by Adams, or at least not without direct access to the book in question. Footnotes certainly would have been helpful.

I also discovered a reference indicating that it came from an account given by Stockdale and related to R. L. Dabney by Rev. J. S. Lyons of Louisville, KY. It was printed in The Life and Letters of R.L. Dabney by Thomas Johnson. Page 499.

Part of the problem is that it is not in any letters of Lee; it's a second (actually third) hand attribution of a verbal comment made by Lee with no witnesses in hearing. And the two sources for it, Adams and Dabney, are both notorious southern partisans.

Given how utterly incongruous it is with all of Lee's other postwar comments (that we can verify), I am inclined to conclude that it is at best hearsay and at worst an invention, especially given the sources.

Whether this bears on the larger argument at hand is for others to decide.

[JohnGalt]

I appreciate the research, but like I wrote in other posts, I truly doubt DiLorenzo as an up-and-comer would risk losing points as a historian (he has already achieved celebrity status as a iconoclast)unless he trusted the sourcing of the quote to Lee.

As a verbal quote, your point still stands, but that is just healthy skepticism which is colored by your own bias, just as I lean the other way on account of my own bias and tendency to believe in that DiLorenzo trusts the attribution.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Thanks for the info on the Lee quote. People don't use a very high standard on verifying their sources on FR, and neither do writers like DiLorenzo, or the author of this piece.

Walt

[4mycountry]

I thought okchemyst made that list, but if GOPcapitalist did, kudos to him.

Glad to see you agree that Walt is a troll. What to do, what to do?

[CobaltBlue]

"The Yankees invaded"? The first act of war came General Beauregard fired on Ft. Sumter. Actually, the first act of war was the secession. No sane man would deny that these acts were bound to lead to war.

I am Southern. My parents were born and raised in Mississippi, grandparents are from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama, and I was born in Virginia and raised in Louisiana. Never lived outside the South.

The bit about the rapes and the cannibalism is laying it on rather thick, but I realize you were trying to fool a Yankee.

[Redleg Duke]

"I venture that the particular geography in which you find yourself at any given time has little effect on the fact that you are a schmuck."

Nope. I just give back what is given to me.

[Redleg Duke]

Actually, I am not a "Southerner"...I am an "American". And I was bantering with a transplant from Michigan who was taking on the aires of a "Southerner".

Having lived in Georgia while growing up, I have found that all areas have their segment of the population that seem to believe that the rest of America is "beneath them".

May I also submit that the fealty to states as opposed to the nation is what was used to fragment the country and initiate the war. We should be proud of our state, our region and our country, but never the former at the expense of the latter. Too much blood has been shed because of that. Now, the Race-Baiters of the NAALCP and their liberal apologists from the East Coast are trying to start the war all over again, not for high principles, but rather for power. The exchange I have had on this thread with the initial individual was meant in fun, but I am facinated by the number of strap-hangers with agendas who are joining in.

[Constitution Day]

I think GOPcapitalist started compiling it in '02; see HERE.

"What to do", indeed.
He needs a little dose of ZOT:

[Redleg Duke]

"And Jamestown is where? Williamsburg is where, Yorktown is where? Arlington is where? Mt. Vernon is where?"

You are asking me? You, a native of Virginia? For heaven's sake, go out and buy a map!

[Redleg Duke]

"Personally, I would like to see you kick my ass..."

Nahh! I would hate to give you a concussion.

[Happy2BMe]

"Actually, I am not a "Southerner"...I am an "American".

That's GOOD ENUFF FOR ME!

[Zavien Doombringer]

Nahh! I would hate to give you a concussion.

Well, you did offer,now you are backing out? Typical northerner. As far as your comment on me needing a map...you forget, we are the masters of giving directions to you northerner carpetbaggers! I merely was giving you points of interest to remind you Virginia is the start of it all! (sorry roanoke Island did flop but it is still in the south!) Southern Heritage gave birth to the United States! It was a Virginian that got all the states together (southern hospitality).

[stainlessbanner]

Nice work, Sheltonmac. A well-written, great piece. I think this needs emphasis:

...the South needs brave men and women to stand on the front lines against the onslaught of PC warriors.

I'll take my stand

[4mycountry]

I thoroughly agree.

AdminModerator, we have good proof that Walt is a troll. Will you ZOT or not?

[stainlessbanner]

Obviously you lost a dear relative at Gettysburg. Too bad you didn't lose them all!

I hope you didn't mean that.

[Constitution Day]

I'll be surprised if it happens.