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Malthus was a profound enemy of birth control!
www.theasianoutlook.com ^ | February 2003 | John Brand, D.Min., J.D.

Posted on 05/13/2003 6:02:52 AM PDT by A. Pole

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To: wideawake
Or did the largely unregulated US healthcare industry and the medical entrepreneur Jonas Salk find a cure? His research was supported by private industry

I wouldn't call Mellon Foundation industry.

41 posted on 05/13/2003 8:00:29 AM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz (if they are gay, why are they always complaining?)
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To: NYer; american colleen
This thread discusses some issues you may be interested in, so I am pinging ye.
42 posted on 05/13/2003 8:04:13 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: wideawake
If a person knowingly tries to expose other people in a free society to a potentially deadly disease without their consent, quarantine is certainly an appropriate response.

Yeah, and for thousands of years it was done by the governments. No entrepreneurs there.

43 posted on 05/13/2003 8:04:18 AM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz (if they are gay, why are they always complaining?)
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To: wideawake
If a person knowingly tries to expose other people in a free society to a potentially deadly disease without their consent, quarantine is certainly an appropriate response

You know, in Hong Kong they quarantined all sick ones, not merely those who "tried". And they prevented their families from visiting them too. Plenty coercion, little free market there.

44 posted on 05/13/2003 8:09:34 AM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz (if they are gay, why are they always complaining?)
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To: Feldkurat_Katz
I wouldn't call Mellon Foundation industry.

Then maybe you're unclear as to what private industry is.

Andrew W. Mellon was an entrepreneur and a private investor who made excellent business ventures into banking, oil, steel, carborundum, etc.

When he died in 1937, he left the money he had privately earned in the private sector and created a Foundation to fund worthwhile projects - just as he had privately funded worthwhile projects (like the coke industry) while he was alive.

His executors distributed some of this private wealth to Jonas Salk's research laboratory. Just because Andrew Mellon died doesn't mean that his money automatically became public funds - to the contrary.

45 posted on 05/13/2003 8:11:02 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: wideawake
Well, now you're now describing it as a question of values rather than hiding behind a vague invocation of "nature". Mission accomplished!
46 posted on 05/13/2003 8:12:01 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: Feldkurat_Katz
You know, in Hong Kong they quarantined all sick ones, not merely those who "tried". And they prevented their families from visiting them too. Plenty coercion, little free market there.

You seem to be somewhat confused.

First of all, Hong Kong is ruled by a Communist regime, so the terms of the quarantine there may be more onerous than those acceptable to a free society. Your assumption that because I support the idea of a quarantine I must therefore support any kind of quarantine imposed by anyone is a bit of a stretch and an exercise in straw man building.

But a quarantine is certainly appropriate in a free society. If one has a disease communicable by routine social contact, the people one encounters can be exposed to it by the infected person's coercive insistence on exposing them.

It is a violation of a person's liberty to expose them to a disease without their free consent.

If the infected person's family wanted to join them in quarantine, that would certainly be permitted to in a free society.

47 posted on 05/13/2003 8:18:58 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: wideawake
I wouldn't call Mellon Foundation industry.

Then maybe you're unclear as to what private industry is.

Perhaps I should become patronizing too, and suggest that your reading comprehension skills are lacking. First of all, I wrote industry not private industry. Secondly, a philantropic institution is not industry. That is the name we give to ones like Pfizer, Merck, Wyeth, GlaxoSmithKline etc.

48 posted on 05/13/2003 8:19:18 AM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz (if they are gay, why are they always complaining?)
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To: steve-b
I never invoked nature. I invoked natural law.

The only "vagueness" here is your lack of clarity in defining concepts - e.g. your inability to distinguish between human action and animal instinct.

49 posted on 05/13/2003 8:21:13 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: wideawake
Nope. Msg#25 clearly invokes "nature" (incorrectly defined as "that which occurs in the absence of consciously directed human intervention).
50 posted on 05/13/2003 8:23:17 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: wideawake
Sorry, I believe abortion is pure evil, but birth control as a whole I hardly believe is morally bankrupt. To believe prevention is an afront to God or morality, then you chould be living in a cave or on the ground accepting all of God's creations without prevention... Hail and rain, sleet and snow! Its nonsense to argue that prevention is an affront to morality.

Murder is an afront to morality, and that is without question what abortion is. Prevention is not. You live in a house to prevent being rained upon, and to prevent being frozen in the winter, your house has a lightning rod to prevent you from being injured in a lightning strike, you have fire alarms to prevent you from being killed in a fire... Prevention is not a moral affront.
51 posted on 05/13/2003 8:23:31 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: HamiltonJay
Precisely -- which is why my first counterargument was to sweep the invocation of "nature" off the table.
52 posted on 05/13/2003 8:29:34 AM PDT by steve-b
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To: Feldkurat_Katz
Secondly, a philantropic institution is not industry.

Let's see. The Mellon Foundation's money consisted at the time of the Salk grant of various ownership interests in banking, mining, oil exploration, toolmaking, etc.

So the Salk grant consisted of money transferred from an industrialist's ownership of various industrial companies.

In what sense was the Mellon Foundation's money not the money of American industry freely given by an American industrialist?

By giving money in this way, Andrew Mellon found a creative means to reduce the taxes on his estate by distributing industrial profits to worthy undertakings rather than the political slushfund known as the US Treasury.

53 posted on 05/13/2003 8:31:14 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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Comment #54 Removed by Moderator

To: A. Pole
Free market/free trade bump

What does this have to do with free markets and free trade? Malthus was wrong.

55 posted on 05/13/2003 8:32:53 AM PDT by Moonman62
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To: steve-b
Msg#25 clearly invokes "nature" (incorrectly defined as "that which occurs in the absence of consciously directed human intervention).

No - it speaks of a response to nature commonly defined as such.

My post in 25, by speaking of a response to nature clearly depends upon a distinction being drawn between nature and natural law.

At no point have I invoked nature as a source of morality in place of natural law.

If you are operating with a definition of nature different from the common acceptation, maybe you should proffer it.

56 posted on 05/13/2003 8:39:27 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: wideawake
You know, in Hong Kong they quarantined all sick ones, not merely those who "tried". And they prevented their families from visiting them too. Plenty coercion, little free market there.

You seem to be somewhat confused.

Still in the patronizing mode, huh?

First of all, Hong Kong is ruled by a Communist regime, so the terms of the quarantine there may be more onerous than those acceptable to a free society. Your assumption that because I support the idea of a quarantine I must therefore support any kind of quarantine imposed by anyone is a bit of a stretch and an exercise in straw man building.

Again, your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. In my original text, I am not assuming anything about what you support. What I am pointing out is that until the free market produces a SARS vaccine (which may take years,) quarantine is the only thing we can do, and it's done by governments.

57 posted on 05/13/2003 8:46:23 AM PDT by Feldkurat_Katz (if they are gay, why are they always complaining?)
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To: Manitoulin
Malthus opposed birth control because he wanted an ample supply of poor people to ensure ample labor for the industrialists.

Yet at the same time he advocated social programs to eliminate excess numbers of poor people, as Zack Nguyen has cited.

Which is it?

Note that Malthus only opposed birth control for the poor. He sez nothing about birth control for the powerful.

In point of fact, he never mentions birth control for anyone in any context.

Why?

Because as a educated Christian of the XVIIIth century he was taught that birth control of any kind was immoral.

What we have in the case of Malthus is someone trying to square the circle:

He wants to be a Christian and acknowledge that artificial birth control is immoral, but at the same time he buys into the unscientific idea that economies are closed systems and zero sum games and that the mythical state known as "overpopulation" is possible.

Therefore he offers the "solution" of neglect as a Christian compromise. It isn't really Christian however - he has avoided one unChristian evil only to embrace another.

58 posted on 05/13/2003 8:50:20 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: Feldkurat_Katz
quarantine is the only thing we can do, and it's done by governments

Some governments are governments authorized by and acting on behalf of free peoples, and some governments aren't.

Quarantines are eminently compatible with the proper governance of a free society.

59 posted on 05/13/2003 8:55:40 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: Moonman62
I think A. Pole thinks that Malthus was a free market advocate.

Which of course he wasn't.

60 posted on 05/13/2003 8:57:05 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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