Extension of Objectivism discussion regarding the soul

Various | Various | Various

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post! My Mother’s Day was wonderful and I hope your day was a joy also!

The quote about Justin Martyr is not in reference to the Kabbalah, it has to do with the book of Enoch which expands on this passage:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. – Genesis 6:1-4

Enoch was Noah’s grandfather. He is also noted as having been the first human not to experience death.

And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him. – Genesis 5:4

In a nutshell, according to the book of Enoch the Watchers were angels assigned by God to look after the descendants of Adam (adamic men carried the breath of God – the neshama.) These Watchers lusted after the human women and made a pact amongst themselves. They slept with the women and produced giant beastly offspring who ravaged the rest of mankind and animals. They also taught mankind how to use metals, make weapons, wage war, beautify the eyes, etc. The good angels appealed to God over the terrible things that were going on. The Watchers fell under God’s wrath and were captured and imprisoned for future judgment.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. – Jude 1:6

Meanwhile, Enoch who was a righteous man was raptured into heaven and was asked to intercede for the Watchers. He did with great passion but to no avail. God allowed Enoch to return to earth and warn his grandson about the flood and the final judgment. Enoch spoke often of the “Elect One” – the Messiah.

The giants physical bodies were destroyed and their spirits are in torment for the judgment also – these are the demons of which Justin Martyr speaks. The Noah Flood destroyed all life wherein there was a neshama, except of course for Noah and his family.

Evidently Justin Martyr believed that all demons spring from the Watchers, i.e. there were none prior to their misconduct. Back to the rest of your post…

I would ask if not "women" is direct or implied translation to the English language? Or should any sin be assigned the spot in your statement that the word occupies. And still your statement would remain synonymous. For as long as the spirit is allowed access to Yechida each sin may not completely sever a Sefirot but it may wound or "constrict" if you will.

According to the Jewish Kabbalah there is nothing that is beyond redemption through repentance. According to the Catholic Church, the only unforgiveable sin is suicide. Here’s what the Scriptures say:

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: - Mark 3:29

Paul explains this further in Hebrews:

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. – Hebrews 6:4-6

The way I see this, is once a person has truly become one with Christ (John 17) – a stage of spiritual growth that I understand is way above a simple profession of faith and usually occurs after walking with the Lord for a long time or under intense circumstances – if they then reject Him, they can never again bring themselves to repentance.

If one is cognizant of THE dark angel may he only visit all manner of abomination on a soul (nefesh?) and not obliterate it? If the evil demon offspring possess the abilty for redemption?

According to the Kabbalah, your statement would be true – the nefesh can never disconnect from the ruach. Christians have an additional, very important protection:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. – James 4:7

The devil will try but as long as you are submitting to God, all you have to do is resist and he’ll flee. There is another important promise to anyone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is described in Romans 8. Here is an excerpt:

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

[Alamo-Girl]

Okay, okay, okay ... I'll behave. LOL!

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL! Thank you for your post!

I'd probably need an anesthetic, to find out exaclty where I fit in.

Since Corinthians says we are all given a special gift of the Spirit, I asked God in prayer what mine was. He pointed me to Barnabas, who was an encourager to those who already believed. I reckon that makes me part of the skeletal system...

[Kudsman]

Amen. Thank you for your time and insight you are truly a tome within yourself. If you have one of these "ping" lists whatever they are I would appreciate being on it. TCN.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for the kudos! I don't keep a ping list per se but I'll be glad to give you a heads up to related discussions. Hugs!

[Kudsman]

I'll be glad to give you a heads up to related discussions.

Done. Please do. I can't(won't) always have $.02 to add though. See you "in the news".

[unspun]

Fine lesson.

Well I'm sure it was! You tell me what you learned and we'll both know....

[Kudsman]

1. If I post on every forum I might ruffle someone's feathers.

2. My lack of tolerance for the someone feeling ruffled cuases me to feel ruffled.

3. My feeling ruffled causes me to spout off. Now I resemble the original poster.

This is why I said:Wait let me check the mirror. Oh my God its me!

ps. I am not a grouse. :-,

[unspun]

This is much too deep for me.

Let's get back to the human soul.

For anyone not familiar with what Kudsman is referring to, please see:
PLEASE! STOP POSTING SAME MESSAGE ON ALL BOARDS!

Can you believe this guy, Merchant Seaman? Wouldn't you just like to tell him off!!!?

[Kudsman]

Instigator. LOL.

[William Terrell]

Gosh, AG, I didn't mean to be clear. I meant to be obtuse and was hoping somebody was going to ask me what I meant.

[Alamo-Girl]

Oops, sorry about that! Please allow me to try again...

What did you mean???

[unspun]

The other view is the substance-dualism view which indicates there is an essence to a human person that exists at the moment of conception and that this essence causes the properties of human persons to develop if not stopped or handicapped - but that it is this essence - this soul - that has a peculiar non-physical substance that is manifesting its nature in the body that grows.

The words below, I believe, carry the news to us humans that there are matters about this that we just do not know -- until they are revealed. Most of the time, when we are told such a thing, about an essential, non-historic matter, I suspect we won't know until the time when many, many things will be revealed. (Due to that, of course, it's clear that we should give the fetus a reasonable benefit of the doubt.)

However, as I've posted elsewhere, even then I believe that our identity is there, in a real, basic way, when our soul and (fallen) spirit may not be, yet. I believe that our identity stems from our relationship to God our Creator, no matter what state we are in at any moment. Our most basic identity comes from this relationship (and our relationality nature) even before what we (and certainly Des Cartes) would call personality.

Earthly evidence of this is the critical relationship we have with our parents from the point of fertilization onward -- even if we can't recall it! Scriptural evidence is the fact of our being from created "matter" and from the breath of God, with an eternal destination of "oneness" or of separation, called "the second death" --the most essential life or death.

By the way, as to the soggy bread, I'm not sure what that's about, but I think I get the point. ;-)
_____________________________________
Listen

Ecclesiastes 11

¹ Cast your bread upon the waters,
for after many days you will find it again.
² Give portions to seven, yes to eight,
for you do not know what disaster may come upon the land.

³ If clouds are full of water,
they pour rain upon the earth.
Whether a tree falls to the south or to the north,
in the place where it falls, there will it lie.
⁴ Whoever watches the wind will not plant;
whoever looks at the clouds will not reap.

⁵ As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed ^[1] in a mother's womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.

⁶ Sow your seed in the morning,
and at evening let not your hands be idle,
for you do not know which will succeed,
whether this or that,
or whether both will do equally well.

⁷ Light is sweet,
and it pleases the eyes to see the sun.
⁸ However many years a man may live,
let him enjoy them all.
But let him remember the days of darkness,
for they will be many.
Everything to come is meaningless.

⁹ Be happy, young man, while you are young,
and let your heart give you joy in the days of your youth.
Follow the ways of your heart
and whatever your eyes see,
but know that for all these things
God will bring you to judgment.
¹⁰ So then, banish anxiety from your heart
and cast off the troubles of your body,
for youth and vigor are meaningless.
Footnotes

1. 11:5 Or know how life (or the spirit ) / enters the body being formed

[unspun]

Why, William, whatever do you mean?
There.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your analysis and the Scripture selection!

Here’s another translation of Ecc 11:5 and again with the original Hebrew – which arrives at the same conclusion you describe:

As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

As thou knowest [yada`] not what is the way [derek] of the spirit [ruwach], nor how the bones [`etsem] do grow in the womb [beten] of her that is with child [male']: even so thou knowest [yada`] not the works [ma`aseh] of God ['elohiym] who maketh all [`asah].

[unspun]

Two more Scripture references about the obvious fact that our earthly lives begin at conception, carrying certain natures from the word go (including the extremely unfortunate one) and being a "who," Horton, or Grinch, or not. (Can I get an Amen? Can I get a "duh?")

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
(Whole Chapter: Psalm 51 In context: Psalm 51:4-6)

Isaiah 46:3
"Listen to me, O house of Jacob, all you who remain of the house of Israel, you whom I have upheld since you were conceived, and have carried since your birth.
(Whole Chapter: Isaiah 46 In context: Isaiah 46:2-4)

[William Terrell]

Why, thank you both, and since you ask:

I figure that, be there a soul, and be it any part of God, it would have to be aware of it's being. If it's my soul, then my awareness must be its awareness and my counciousness its consciousness. That is to say, myself.

To see myself, all I have to do is separate myself from my mind. When I'm aware of my thoughts, which come from the mind, I'm seeing something separate from myself. Then that which is aware of those thoughts is myself.

When I dream, my waking mind is out cold, but the awareness is still the same, but doing other things, of which I'm not aware when I wake up, unless I remember the dream. I think we see our souls every minute of every day, wake and sleep. It's that it's so familiar, it just ain't no big thing.

[Alamo-Girl]

How beautifully said, William! Thank you so much!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the excellent Scripture selections! It's very evident from those words that we exist before God from the moment of conception.

[unspun]

And then the verse where God tells Jeremiah, wasn't it? -- that He knew him before conception!