"Unlike the American troops, we look the Iraqis in the eye"

The Daily Telegraph U.K. ^ | 4-05-03 | Not attributed

[Pukka Puck]

I am not at all sensitive.

I just call a spade a spade.

I don't have to imagine whether or not a US Special Forces would have batted an eyelid at the snide putdown of their style to see that the writer introduces the piece with a egregious slap at Americans in order to contrast their style with the supposedly far more effective British style.

That's a fact jack.

If you and Madivan want to pretend that the putdown is all in my imagination, even though other Americans also pointed out the insult and may18 saw the putdown for what it is, then you are intellectually dishonest.

If, instead, you would be honest and agree that the writer was putting down the Americans for no good reason and then go on to minimize or justify the putdown because it was for the morale of the British public, that would be intellectually honest.

You show your colors as a blind partisan when you refuse to admit the obvious.

[Happygal]

You had better go back and re:read the thread about the 'fruit dumplings'.

And perhaps read this thread too. I never said I agreed with the author here. Indeed neither did Ivan.

You are being deliberately mendacious, and duplicitous Pukka, and you know it! :-)

[Happygal]

Oh! And i forgot to mention, pedantic! *L* ;-)

[WaterDragon]

As this thread appears to begin to wind down, I'd like to summarize a few points on which it appears everyone on the thread agrees:

1) American appreciation for Blair leading Britain into an alliance with us on this war is very strong and will continue to be strong.

2)The British public, since the war actually started, has become increasingly supportive of their nation's participation in it.

3) Americans have no complaints about the effectiveness or the individual behavior of the British troops. Every comment about them, on this thread, nearly as I can tell, has been in praise of the British troops.

4) The Telegraph is the most conservative and is the primary conservative newspaper in Britain, on the order of the Washington Times or the Wall Street Journal's op-ed page in America.

5) The Telegraph has printed, during this war, articles that appear, to Americans, to be insulting to American troops. (Not all Americans on this thread agree they are insulting.) Brits on this thread do not consider them insulting, or they agree that they might seem so to Americans but hey! this is just the way of British newspapers, even the primary conservative one, to include articles that will be politically offensive to its readers.

6)No one on this thread has seen or heard of articles in conservative (or for that matter, liberal/left) American newspapers similarly insulting or appearing to anyone to insult the British troops.

Correct me if I'm wrong that these are areas where most of us on the thread agree.

Where we disagree seems to be on whether Americans ought to object, in the FR forum, to Telegraph articles that insult, in a jokey way, American troops.

Some Brits say some of us Americans are just too easily insulted and not sufficiently appreciative of the lofty, world-class conservatism of the Telegraph, or that we are nitpicky in not overlooking occasional lapses in the Telegraph's conservatism when it comes to insult-jokey articles about American troops.

The Brits seem to feel that articles appearing to put-down American troops are ought to be seen as merely a way of praising British troops.

The Brits don't consider it unusual or worthy of comment that American newspapers don't, by way of praising our own troops, indulge in jokey put-downs of British troops (we thank the Brits for that -- it's a compliment, a show of appreciation for our maturity, high class, and good manners.)

I haven't covered everything here, but these seem important points to me. It is important that the British and the Telegraph understand we consider their jokey-insults to American troops who fight for us all, and some have died, and some are injured, to be utterly unacceptable.

We hve to believe that the Telegraph doesn't expect much objection from the British conservative public when it insults American soldiers. Certainly Brits in this thread have defended the Telegraph article and another like it.

We find it strange that British FR posters and some American posters, become incensed if we object to ANYTHING in the Telegraph, even insults to American troops.

Americans are not generally unquestioningly loyal to any newspaper or to any politician, at least not CONSERVATIVE Americans. But we ARE almost unquestioningly loyal to our TROOPS.

I wonder how the Brits would feel if the Washington Times printed articles about British troops in the same vein as its insulting ones about Americans.......

Something like.......a group of American soldiers come upon a group of Brit soldiers who had shed their protective gear and were lounging with a number of Iraqis, handing out Fruit Loops (pun there to Americans), with their weapons stacked off to one side.

The Americans quickly scan the Iraqis and separate out three of them, removing from one a rifle hidden in his clothes and from two others hand grenades.

Several of the frightened Iraqis tell the Americans they tried to signal the Brits about the terrorists in their midst, but the Brits didn't seem to understand.

The Americans nod, then reassure the Iraqis "That's okay. The Brits like to think the best of everyone, but don't worry, we'll stay nearby."

It may be that British posters would chuckle at this, and nod their heads saying Yes, that's what we're like. Our lads can learn a lot from those alert, focused, protective Americans. I'm sure the Iraqis would be most appreciative, too.

[Happygal]

To tell you the truth Waterdragon, I've gone beyond caring.

The Daily Telegraph (not the UK Telegram, as you called it further up the thread), is a damn fine newspaper. I'd love a job working on their news desk.

Adios!

[Pukka Puck]

After rereading the thread, per your suggestion, I post the following quotes, which are representative of your and Madivan's comments.

Neither of you ever admitted that the author of the fruit article put a negative spin on the Americans or as marktwain wrote in post #31, "I've been reading the Telegraph articles, and there definitely seems to be some attempt to portray Americans as Jerks. I am not sure why. Notice that everything in the description about the Americans was subtly negative, even though there was nothing objectively that they did or said that was negative."

"I don't really regard it as a diss." Madivan, post #39

In response to, "Perhaps you would agree that it was a little gratuitous to diss the Yanks.", Enduring Freedom post #35

"This was obviously a gratuitous slap at our special forces.", Pukka, post 41

"Bullshit! ", Happygal in response to post 41

Perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread again. You leapt at WellsFargo94's throat for merely writing in post #3 that the article, "Didn't seem to be a very positive description of our guys."

Who is being mendacious here?

[Pukka Puck]

Nice summary and on topic. Well done.

[may18]

yeah the article could have had more class regarding putting americans in a bad light.

To be fair though, ive read some quite hurtfull anti brit stuff on this forum. Mainly regarding blairs attitue to israel. I dont personally agree with his stance.

But some of the comments such as britain basically being a oilet were quite offensive.

However upon reading them origonally i chose not to comment on them

[Pukka Puck]

But surely you are not comparing stuff written on this forum to an article written in an important conservative paper?

Anyone can write darn near anything on this forum and the often do. The Daily Telegraph, on the other hand, pay good money to those who write their stories and they have an editorial staff who are paid to look over and eliminate tasteless drivel.

[WaterDragon]

To be fair though, ive read some quite hurtfull anti brit stuff on this forum. Mainly regarding blairs attitue to israel. I dont personally agree with his stance

I had the same experience in a British forum some time before September 11. Brits and Canadians would make the most insulting remarks about Americans as a whole, then when I courteously objected, they assured me they liked Americans a lot and I shouldn't be offended. It was there I learned never again to tolerate egregious insults to my countrymen, and certainly won't tolerate insults to our troops. Neither should you tolerate insults to British people as a whole. Hopefully, we can get people, posters, to be specific. And I think that is exactly what Americans have tried to be in this thread, but your reminder is a good one. This thread is about insults to U.S. troops and British defense of the arrogant newspaper that printed them......in this American forum. You haven't defended the Telegraph articles, and have even written the Telegraph to object to them. I haven't insulted Brits, and I won't be silenced from calling the Telegraph on it's low-class, unfriendly, duplicitous (and probably fabricated) articles insulting us when I see them.

[may18]

thats spot on btw waterdragon

critism of blair? nod i dont actually like his domestic policies for instance as im a traditional conservative.

Its when its at the people themselves, that i fidnd it offensive

anyway my apologies for going offtopic

[WaterDragon]

Special thanks, Pukka_Puck, for leading the fight here.

[Happygal]

What fight? I thought we were all allies?

[Pukka Puck]

"What fight? I thought we were all allies?"

Good question. I don't want to fight with the British, I like the British and I am glad that they are our allies.

The question should be rather, why does your premier conservative paper make snide remarks about your allies? Why pick a fight with your allies? To what end?

If the articles in question had simply extolled the virtues of British methods and refrained from unfavorable comparisons with American methods, the Brits could have been deservedly proud and the Americans would have been happy for them.

[Happygal]

Pukka, I'm really tired of waltzing around this 'same old, same old' merry-go-round.

What do you suggest?

I won't stop buying the Daily Telegraph because they had one article that I found offensive (and said so) and one other that I didn't see as being majorly problematic in view of the audience it was written for and, especially in view of the time, it was written. Sorry. I just won't.

Seeing as we all essentially agree on the fundamentals, it's pedantic to continue going around in circles.

WHAT would you suggest I should do in terms of the Daily Telegraph? I won't stop buying it. It has some of the finest conservative editorials published, not only in Britain but throughout Europe - indeed it's editorial comment is often picked up and used in conservative publications here in Ireland.

So what do you want me to do? Bleed?

(Far to fiesty, and Irish, to accede to that request! *L*)

[Pukka Puck]

Send me a picture and all will be forgiven.

[Happygal]

Forgiven???? ~hands on hips~

An Irish Catholic girl, hardly needs to look to Texas for absolution! ;-)

[Jorge]

The Telegraph, supposedly the most conservative newspaper in Britain, has published a series of drivel like this throughout the war.

I think they are trying to compensate for the fact it took the Brits weeks to take the much smaller city of Basra while the Americans took Baghdad, a city of 5 million in a few days.

And if you notice, most of the praise from Iraqis, as well as the exiles for liberating Iraq from Saddam recognizes President Bush and the Americans. The Brits and Blair get very little mention.

So again, these sort of articles appear to be attempts to make up for America's dominance.

[Pukka Puck]

I'm a Catholic too, due to an Irish Grandmother named Reagan.

[Happygal]

I guess you'll expect me to bow now, when you tell me you are a direct line descendant of Ronald Reagan and Brian Boru? ;-)