Confederate Memorial Day will honor soldiers who sided against the Union

staugustine.com ^ | 18 April 2003 | PETER GUINTA

[thatdewd]

Sherman did indeed make the 1st U. S. Alabama Cavalry his personal escort during his march to the sea, to honor these southern loyalists.

No, he didn't.

[canalabamian]

Blacks in combat roles challenge the traditional stereotype. Status quo packages up more neatly. Acknowledging blacks were armed weakens the likelihood that they served only under duress. If the equation is changed then the sum must be different. Most aren't comfortable with that. The most complex event in our country's history doesn't package neatly and can't be seen in only black and white. Its plainly not that simple. Blacks serving only in support roles allows them to excuse their service as only occurring under duress. You're right support is equally important in warfare, but accepting that blacks served willingly in any capacity requires most to challenge what they've learned or would like to believe. The Antebellum South was a much more complex society than tradition allows.

[Non-Sequitur]

Well that and you're calling Frederick Douglass a liar along with more than one union officer.

I would hardly expect Frederick Douglass to be an expert on the confederate military and he did have an agenda besides. What better way to shame the North into recruiting black combat troops than to claim that the confederacy, of all places, already had them? And while you have occasionally posted alleged accounts from Union officers about black combat troops how about some accounts from southern leaders on black combat troops? How about Jackson talking about those 2000 black troopers who were supposed to be with his corps or Lee commenting on the battlefield prowess of the tens of thousands of black troops stande waite seems to believe were in the Army of Northern Virginia. Instead you have Lee relunctantly saying that although he would prefer a white army, the need for troops is so great that he is prepared to accept black ones.

[Non-Sequitur]

Even Frederick Douglass said blacks fought for the Confederacy...

And as I pointed out to billbears, Douglass had his agenda. He wanted black Union troops and what better way to get them than to shame the North by claiming the confederates were already using them? It seems like all the claims and accounts of black combat troops come from the North. Why none from the south? Why didn't Jackson comment on his black troops if he was supposed to have over 2,000 with him? Why does Lee state a preference for the army remaining white if he already had black troops in his ranks?

[Non-Sequitur]

They were still THERE and no one made them join did they?

We don't know that for sure. If the overwhelming majority were slaves then it can't be said that they had a choice, can it? No doubt some served the army voluntarily but it's likely that most were there because their owners were or their owners said so.

[billbears]

An Indiana soldier wrote a letter to his hometown newspaper recounting his unit's run-in with black Confederates in the fall of 1861. The story was reprinted throughout the North: a body of seven hundred Negro infantry opened fire on our men, wounding two lieutenants and two privates. The wounded men testify positively that they were shot by Negroes, and that not less than seven hundred were present, armed with muskets. This is, indeed, a new feature in the war. We have heard of a regiment of Negroes at Manassas, and another at Memphis, and still another at New Orleans, but did not believe it till it came so near home and attacked our men. . . . One of the lieutenants was shot in the back of the neck and is not expected to live.

Here

There were even blacks who rode with Confederate Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest when he gave Union generals fits in Mississippi and Tennessee. "Better Confederates did not live," Forrest said of the blacks that rode with him

Here

I assume a quote from the man who is mistakenly credited with starting the Klan will be good enough? BTW, you may want to read that second link. A descendant of the Black Confederates made a documentary about them

[the_rightside]

"I assume a quote from the man who is mistakenly credited with starting the Klan "

That is a new angle.

[Non-Sequitur]

And a happy Easter to you, billbears.

If I recall correctly, Forrest's quote was delivered a number of years after the war. What about during it? What about Jackson and Johnston and Hood and Lee? Where are their accounts of the courage and dedication of their black troops? All we have from Lee on the matter is he January 1865 letter where he bemoans the fact that his preferred white army is no longer possible and that black troops should be enlisted. If they had been serving with him for years then why is he so unhappy about it in '65?

[the_rightside]

"I'm suprised y'all just haven't gone ahead and venerated him up next to Christ"

LOL

No, I am afraid the mighty Stonewall has taken that position.

[Non-Sequitur]

BTW, you may want to read that second link. A descendant of the Black Confederates made a documentary about them.

OK, I read the second link. Let's see. According to him 50,000 to 100,000 were fighting for the confederacy, yet provides nothing to support that. He does include the unsupported claim that some served as combat soldiers. If so, where? Why not contemporary accounts of their service from the confederate side? He talks about the 3000 seen with knives and guns, and then immediately blows the time line. Those blacks were not on their way to Gettysburg, he is obviously quoting the Louis Steiner report which was reporting activities before Antietam. A minor matter, perhaps, but one which shows that accuracy wasn't important and he was simply parroting the same stuff that has been stated over and over. Nothing new, no supporting evidence. Nothing at all.

[thatdewd]

Douglass had his agenda. He wanted black Union troops and what better way to get them than to shame the North by claiming the confederates were already using them?

Maybe he was just shaming them with the truth. Horace Greely did so as well:

"For more than two years, Negroes have been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They have been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union." - Horace Greely

It seems like all the claims and accounts of black combat troops come from the North. Why none from the south?

There are, the black participants at Confederate Veteran reunions testify to that. Tennessee, for example, legally sanctioned the recruitment of free blacks into the ranks of State Regiments. The 14th Tennessee Infantry Regiment listed numerous "free men of color" on their Roll of Honor, one of which was killed in action carrying their colors during Pickett's Charge. On the other side of it, there were a few regimental commanders who didn't like it when blacks were in their firing lines and they issued orders that they were to stay in the rear and no longer fight, making it clear they were addressing an existing situation. It is not just the Northern side that provides the claims and accounts, its just that those are the ones most often presented since it is believed the information will be less doubted due to the source.

Why didn't Jackson comment on his black troops if he was supposed to have over 2,000 with him?

Actually, I think Dr. Steiner said there were at least 3,000 with that particular group. There was no reason for him to mention them, they were simply a part of the Army. They were just members of the various units.

Why does Lee state a preference for the army remaining white if he already had black troops in his ranks?

Those comments were dealing with a different issue, the one of creating racially segregated all-black regiments. Some officers had objected to the idea and Lee did not want to cause problems within the command structure at a critical point in the war. Of those who objected to that particular legislation, most felt that all-black units would not be disciplined enough to be effective if the blacks were just congregated together and were not part of a white infrastructure. And of course there were some, just as in the North, who simply did not want all-black units held up as equals to the predominantly white regular Army units. Both sides had people who felt that way.

[Colt .45]

"This was passed by the confederate congress in February 1864. If blacks had been serving in the confederate army prior to this then why was this legislation necessary? And if they had been serving as combat troops prior to this then why did this legislation limit them to service roles only?"

Confederate Army is a proper noun and should be capitalized. Tsk-tsk ... your grammar is atrocious. I figured that your being an ex-Naval Officer you would have had the wherewithall to research farther than cherry-picking only that which supports you argument. So for your further edification I will give this -

'Blacks Who Fought For the South'
'Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.

Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."

Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live."

Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.

Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."

Many knew Lincoln had little love for enslaved blacks and didn't wage war against the South for their benefit. Lincoln made that plain, saying, "I will say, then, that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

The very words of his 1863 Emancipation Proclamation revealed his deceit and cunning; it freed those slaves held "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States." It didn't apply to slaves in West Virginia and areas and states not in rebellion. Like Gen. Ulysses Grant's slaves, they had to wait for the 13th Amendment, Grant explained why he didn't free his slaves earlier, saying, "Good help is so hard to come by these days."

Lincoln waged war to "preserve the Union". The 1783 peace agreement with England (Treaty of Paris] left 13 sovereign nations. They came together in 1787, as principals, to create a federal government, as their agent, giving it specific delegated authority -specified in our Constitution. Principals always retain the right to fire their agent. The South acted on that right when it seceded. Its firing on Fort Sumter, federal property, gave Lincoln the pretext needed for the war.

The War Between the States, through force of arms, settled the question of secession, enabling the federal government to run roughshod over states' rights specified by the Constitution's 10th Amendment.

Sons of Confederate Veterans is a group dedicated to giving a truer account of the War Between the States. I'd like to see it erect on Richmond's Monument Avenue a statue of one of the thousands of black Confederate soldiers.' - Walter Williams (African-American professor of economics at George Mason University).

So now I suppose you're going to tell me he's a liar?!

[stand watie]

TRUE!

[stand watie]

NOPE, they were, without exception, volunteers.

the draft did NOT apply to non-whites.

FRee dixie,sw

[stand watie]

ALSO TRUE!

in a speech in Boston, MA Frederick Douglas said that there were at that time (1861) THOUSANDS of blacks in the CSA fighting for THEIR COUNTRY. (emphasis mine.)

did Douglas lie? i think NOT.

FRee dixie,sw

[stand watie]

also true.

[stand watie]

N-S, you are smarter than that.

slaves could NOT be members of the army, navy or marines because they were not free to take the oath of enlistment. we are talking about FREE MEN who joined of their own FREE WILL. you KNOW this.

FRee dixie,sw

[stand watie]

once again, Lee was talking about recruiting for the PACSA,i.e. the REGULAR ARMY.

he obviously knew that many blacks, indians, hispanics & asians were serving in the CSA armed forces. he was, after all, NOT blind.

FRee dixie,sw

[Non-Sequitur]

Confederate Army is a proper noun and should be capitalized.

On the contrary, confederate is either a noun, verb, or adjective depending on use. But while Turkey can be a proper noun when referring to the country, confederate is not because there was no country called the confederate states.

As for the rest it ignores the questions I've asked over and over again. Where are the contemporary accounts from the southern leaders of their black combat troops? Where is any word from Stonewall Jackson of the fighting prowess of the troops that Dr. Steiner saw and whom you believe were combat soldiers? Why does Robert Lee lament the fact that he is forced to give up his preferred all-white army and bring in black troops? There isn't any, because the idea of a black man fighting on equal footing with a white man was an anathma to the southern leadership from Davis on down. Look at what happened to Patrick Cleburne in 1863 for suggesting it.

So now I suppose you're going to tell me he's a liar?!

No, but Dr. Williams wasn't there and given his mistakes in history in the past I don't place a lot of stock in this comment, either.

[Non-Sequitur]

once again, Lee was talking about recruiting for the PACSA,i.e. the REGULAR ARMY.

Can you identify any unit in the PACSA that fought as part of the Army of Northern Virginia or the Army of Tennessee? It was my understaning that PACSA designations were given to bands like Quantrill's mob to give them some protection if they were captured. Protection not afforded the civilians in Lawrence BTW.