Posted on 04/13/2003 12:23:25 PM PDT by Remedy
No it isn't but the current IRS codes and regulation are pretty close.
20, 30, 40 percent of any product is NOT taxable income. If it was that would mean they are making HUGE 100+% profits...If you know of any companies working at that profitability let me know.
Never said it was.
If you can accurately predict what the competitive market will do, you are a super rich man...or should be.
Simple economics& history reasonably predicts what the competitive market will do.
Pricing is a struggle not for lower prices but for the highest prices(profit) possible. If it wasn't they would never go up...
Wrong. Pricing is a struggle for profitability or survival at its lowest level. This includes volume and costs in the equation. Prices reach a point of equilibrium based on supply, demand, and competition. One changes and so does the other like Ohm's law. Higher prices does not necessarily mean higher overall profit, volume of sales must be taken into account as well as cost per unit. Selling 1,000 hours of service at $100 per hour with a cost of $50 per hour means a profit of $50,000. Selling 10,000 hours of service at $80 per hour with a cost of $40 per hour means a profit of $400,000. The lower price makes a significantly higher profit than the higher price in that instance. Increase your volume and usually cost per unit goes down. Fixed costs are divided by a larger number of sales. There is a point of diminishing returns when you raise or lower prices, which causes the market to reach an equilibrium. Demand is elastic based on price, more elastic for some products or services than others. Price of whisky too high people drink more beer less whisky. Cars priced too high people buy motorcycles or ride the bus. More competition lower prices, less competition higher prices, causing more competition to enter the marked until an equilibrium is reached. Raise your price too much, more competition and less sales for you. Lower your price too much and less profit per sale.
There are more ways than you and I could discuss here to make that happen...price only appears to be the simplest way.
Make what happen?
In theory, if you had $100,000 in gross sales including 10% profit, you would have $9091 taxable profit. Assuming a 38% tax rate, your tax bill would be $3455.00 leaving a net profit of $5636.00...Assuming you'd want to maintain the same after tax profit once your income tax burden is removed, the best you could lower your price would be about 4%...not 20%...do the math, and while you're at it don't forget to factor in the new sales tax would raise the price 30%.
You left out the reducion in costs that I pointed out, no payroll taxes-3 to 9%, less compliance costs, no capital gains taxes, plus the added ability to pass a business to heirs without gift or estate tax. If you were selling a product made of materials instead of a service, your costs could be much less because the materials you use to make the product would cost less to buy....Lower costs of the materials used to produce the end product ( 4% less taxes 3-9 %less (material) payroll taxes, =7 to 13% less cost of materials),end result 7-13 lower cost of materials, 4% less taxes, 3 to 9% less (production) payroll=14 to 26% less expenses. Dominoes goes both ways....
Where do you get 30% new tax from?
As to "compliance costs" accounting will always be done and wages along with self-employment income is still required to be reported to the government.
There is a difference in cost between accounting and tax costs, which are much greater. Multiple depreciation schedules, tax shelters, pension, deferred compensation rules, etc.
BTW, Jorgenson, the one (and only) economist you nst folks like to trot out as your expert is a WTO, Kyoto accord, BTU/carbon tax socialist.
Please feel free to trot out our own economist, I would love to hear what they have to say.
Oh yes you didn't answer my two previous questions, are you happy with the present system and are you in the legal or accounting tax field?
See the following link for more info on the tax reform
http://www.fairtax.org/pdfs/taxreform.pdf
And how it woul affect different people and entities:
http://www.fairtax.org/research.asp?pageid=21
FROM TAX.ORG, et al.
It's income tax time again, Americans: time to gather up those receipts, get out those tax forms, sharpen up that pencil, and stab yourself in the aorta.-- Dave Barry 4/6/99
The suppression of unnecessary offices, of useless establishments and expenses, enabled us to discontinue our internal taxes. -- President Thomas Jefferson in his second inaugural address, March 4, 1805.
Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on income, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. -- 16th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, ratified February 25, 1913.
Every good citizen...should be willing to devote a brief time during some one day in the year, when necessary, to the making up of a listing of his income for taxes...to contribute to his government, not the scriptural tithe, but a small percentage of his net profits. -- Cordell Hull, addressing the U.S. House of Representatives, April 26, 1913.
It is not too much to hope that some day we may get back on a tax basis of 10 percent, the old Hebrew tithe, which was always considered a fairly heavy tax. -- Andrew Mellon
Thanks alot for tax reform. I am spending about 5 hours now working on my taxes and paying my accountant twice as much. It sure would be nice to vote for a politician who can get this tax reform under control. -- letter from a taxpayer to the Office of Management and Budget, April 17, 1989.
I hold in my hand 1,379 pages of tax simplification. -- Delbert L. Latta
The IRS has had substantial success in Chicago. Al Capone was convicted on tax evasion here, and that was probably the last time a majority of Americans applauded the IRS on anything.-- Sheldon L. Banoff
. . . In this world, nothing is certain but death and taxes.-- Benjamin Franklin discussing the Stamp Act passed by the British Parliament on March 22, 1765
It is fairer to tax people on what they extract from the economy, as roughly measured by their consumption, than to tax them on what they produce for the economy, as roughly measured by their income. -- Thomas Hobbes
There's only one way to kill capitalism-- by taxes, taxes, and more taxes. -- Karl Marx
The greatest tax bill in American history. -- President Franklin D. Roosevelt on the October 21, 1942 passage of the Revenue Act of 1942.
Read my lips -- no new taxes. -- George Bush on August 18, 1988, at the Republican National convention.
I have no intention of raising taxes.-- President Bill Clinton
I wish I could promise you that I won't ask you to pay any more. -- President Bill Clinton at a February 10, 1993 nationally televised town meeting.
The biggest tax increase in the history of the universe. -- Senate Majority Leader Robert J. Dole, R-Kan., on President Clinton's 1993 deficit reduction package.
Probably there are people in this room still mad at me because you think I raised your taxes too much. It might surprise you to know the I think I raised them too much, too. -- President Bill Clinton, October 1995
When there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income. -- Plato, in The Republic
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.-- New Testament
In other words, a democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape obligation to pay it. -- Alexis de Tocqueville
Ripping out the system by its roots is a proposition we readily support.-- W. Henson Moore during a July 31, 1996 Ways and Means Committee hearing
An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy. -- Daniel Webster
Taxes are the killing fields of Democrats.-- Grover Norquist
I believe that the 16th amendment has created a system that is economically destructive, impossibly complex, overly intrusive, unprincipled, dishonest, unfair, and inefficient-- Rep. Sam Johnson R-Texas on April 10, 1997
I can't make a damn thing out of this tax problem. I listen to one side and they seem right -- and then I talk to the other side and they seem just as right, and here I am where I started. God, what a job! -- President Warren G. Harding, born in November 1865.
As a citizen, you have an obligation to the country's tax system, but you also have an obligation to yourself to know your rights under the law and possible tax deductions. And to claim every one of them. -- Former IRS Commissioner Donald Alexander
If [a United States Supreme Court Justice is] in the doghouse with the Chief [Justice], he gets the crud. He gets the tax cases.-- Harry Blackmum
Nuclear physics is much easier than tax law. It's rational and always works the same way.- Jerold Rochwald
Dear Mr. President, Internal Revenue regulations will turn us into a nation of bookkeepers. The life of every citizen is becoming a business. This, it seems to me, is one of the worst interpretations of the meaning of human life history has ever seen. Man's life is not a business.-- Saul Bellow's "Herzog" (1964)
Contrary to what some people claim, the tax laws have a lot of respect for logic. They use it so sparingly.-- Jeffrey L. Yablon
There is nothing more complicated than trade law, except possibly 'the code.' -- Rep. Barbara Kennelly, D-Conn
For years the IRS has run roughshod over the constitutional rights of our citizens. -- Rep. James A. Traficant, Jr., introducing an amendment on February 8, 1995.
[American tax laws] are constantly changing as our elected representatives seek new ways to ensure that whatever tax advice we receive is incorrect. --Dave Barry
The First Rule of Practicing Tax Law: If someone has to go to jail, make sure it's the client.-- Fred Drasner
A society which turns so many of its best and brightest into tax lawyers may be doing something wrong.-- Hoffman F. Fuller
The avoidance of taxes is the only intellectual pursuit that still carries any reward. -- John Maynard Keynes, who was born June 5, 1883.
Income taxes are the most imaginative fiction written today. -- Herman Wouk
It's a game. We [tax lawyers] teach the rich how to play it so they can stay rich--and the IRS keeps changing the rules so we can keep getting rich teaching them.-- John Grisham
The nation ought to have a tax system which looks like someone designed it on purpose.-- William E. Simon
Logic and taxation are not always the best of friends.-- James C. McReynolds
American workers spend more of their day working to pay taxes than they do to feed, clothe, and house their families.-- The Tax Foundation 9/6/99
The IRS has 480 different tax forms, plus 280 more to explain how to fill out the first 480. The original Tax Code had 11,400 words; today it has 7 million.-- Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas
This [preparing my tax return] is too difficult for a mathematician. It takes a philosopher. -- Albert Einstein
The Tax Code is a monstrosity and there's only one thing to do with it. Scrap it, kill it, drive a stake through its heart, bury it and hope it never rises again to terrorize the American people.-- Steve Forbes
The hardest thing to understand in the world is the income tax.-- Albert Einstein
The United States is the only country where it takes more brains to figure your tax than to earn the money to pay it.-- Edward J. Gurney
Virtually every major accounting firm is an aggressive adversary of tax simplification.- -Stephan Moore
[Congress should] pull the current income tax code out by its roots and throw it away.-- Rep. Bill Archer, R-Texas, at a Ways and Means Committee hearing
All taxes paid over a lifetime by the average American are spent by the government in less than a second.-- Jim Fiebig
Are we EVER going to have a federal tax system that regular people can understand.-- Dave Barry
Read my lips. No new taxes.-- President George Bush
All the Congress, all the accountants and tax lawyers, all the judges, and a convention of wizards all cannot tell for sure what the income tax law says.-- Walter B. Wriston
Despite the complexity of today's tax law, I think that tax lawyers must not forget how to be good lawyers. -- IRS Commissioner Margaret Richardson to the ABA Tax Section, August 1994.
It's hard to tinker with a monster. -- Sen. Sam Nunn, D-Ga., discussing the tax code on October 5, 1993.
The federal income tax system is a disgrace to the human race.-- Jimmy Carter
It's getting so that children have to be educated to realize that 'Damn' and 'Taxes' are two separate words.-- Unknown
Isn't it appropriate that the month of the tax begins with April Fool's Day and ends with cries of 'May Day!'-- Robert Knauerhase 4/1/99
Hell hath no fury like vested interest masquerading as a moral principle. -- Rep. Barber Conable
The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall.-- Denis Healey 4/12/99
Excessive taxation will carry reason and reflection to every man's door, and particularly in the hour of election.-- Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor (only if elections were held in April)
Fear is the tax that conscience pays to guilt.-- George Sewell
Income tax has made more liars out of the American people than golf.-- Will Rogers
[T]he tax code is the single greatest source of lobbying activity in Washington.-- Rep. Richard K. Armey, R-Texas
The current income tax code is the chief source of political corruption in the nation's capitol.-- Rep. Richard K. Armey, R-Texas
The collection of any taxes which are not absolutely required, which do not beyond reasonable doubt contribute to the public welfare, is only a species of legalized larceny.-- President Calvin Coolidge
We must get rid of the IRS. It's a bureaucracy fraught with totalitarianism.
-- Rep. Sonny Bono, R-California
The income tax created more criminals than any other single act of government.-- Barry M. Goldwater
There is no art which one government sooner learns from another than that of draining money from the pockets of the people.-- Adam Smith
Income tax returns are the most imaginative fiction being written today. -- Herman Wouk
The avoidance of taxes is the only pursuit that still carries any reward.-- John Maynard Keynes
The trick is to stop thinking of it as 'your' money.-- Revenue Auditor
Of all debts, men are least willing to pay taxes. What a satire is this on government!-- Ralph Waldo Emerson "Politics," 1844
I am proud to be paying taxes in the United States. The only thing is - I could be just as proud for half the money.- Arthur Godfrey
For every $50 you earn, you get $10 and they get $40.-- Jay Leno explaining Form 1040
I have something my tax doctor calls 'narcotaxis.' Within 20 seconds of hearing someone launch into an explanation of tax laws, my eyes become glassy, my body loses all feeling, and I go into a shallow coma.-- Russell Baker commenting in column "Sunday Observer," the New York Times (4-19-87)
The federal income tax is a complete mess. It's not efficient. It's not fair. It's not simple. It's not comprehensible. It fosters tax avoidance and cheating. It costs billions of dollars to administer. -- Robert E. Hall and Alvin Rabushka
Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.-- Bumper Sticker
My uncle claims that if he files his income tax wrong he'll go to jail, and if he files it right he'll go to the poor house.-- Nonnee Coan
The best way for the Government to maintain its credit is to pay as it goes-not by resorting to loans, but by keeping out of debt-through an adequate income secured by a system of taxation, external or internal, or both.-- President William McKinley's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1897
Due to the sheer size of the IRS, waste and mismanagement occur on a massive scale.-- Rep. Stephen Horn, R-Calif.
Whenever taxes become burdensome, a remedy can be applied by the people; but if they do not act for themselves, no one can be very successful in acting for them.-- President Calvin Coolidge
You [senators] and the American people don't have a clue about how the IRS does its job, and that's just the way they like it.-- Shelley Davis
Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut saves you 30 cents?-- Peg Bracken
The history of congressional oversight of the IRS does not speak well for how seriously lawmakers have been monitoring the operations of the agency.-- George Guttman
An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, the power to destroy.-- Daniel Webster We do not have a rogue agent problem at the Service. -- IRS Commissioner Margaret Richardson, August 6, 1994. IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.-- Bumper Sticker That the power to tax involves the power to destroy...[is ] not to be denied. -- U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall in McCulloch v. Maryland, March 6, 1819. The income tax people are very nice. They're letting me keep my own mother.-- Henny Youngman The reward of energy, enterprise and thrift is taxes.-- William Feather Next to being shot at and missed, nothing is really quite as satisfying as an income tax refund.-- F. J. Raymond Houseless: Having paid all taxes on household goods.-- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night.-- Otto Von Bismarck God only knows where we got our tax system...it is completely out of step with the world. -- Rep. Sam Gibbons, D-Fla., June 10, 1991. If Thomas Jefferson thought taxation without representation was bad, he should see how it is with representation.-- Rush Limbaugh Taxes and golf are alike, you drive your heart out for the green, and then end up in the hole.-- Unknown Nothing guarantees more applause and more support than the call to abolish the IRS.- Frank Luntz If mass murderer Jeffrey Dahmer is innocent until proven guilty, why in God's name isn't a taxpayer? -- Rep. James A. Traficant Jr., D-Ohio, discussing H.R. 3261 on April 21, 1994. We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes. -- Leona Helmsley, whose tax evasion convictions were affirmed by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals on July 30, 1991. There are only three ways to meet the unpaid bills of a nation. The first is taxation. The second is repudiation. The third is inflation. -- Herbert Hoover, born in August 1874. Ronald Reagan will clobber us if we don't go forward with tax reform. -- Speaker of the House Rep. Thomas P. "Tip" O'Neill, D-Mass., October 7, 1985. A basic tenet of the American justice system is that you are innocent until proven guilty. This principle does not, however, apply to the U.S. Tax Court. -- Rep. James A. Traficant Jr., D-Ohio, introducing legislation on October 12, 1993 to switch the burden of proof in federal tax fraud and evasion cases from taxpayers to the IRS. It is inseparably essential to the freedom of a people, and the undoubted right of Englishmen, that no taxes be imposed on them but with their own consent, given personally or by their representatives. -- Stamp Act Congress, October 19, 1765. What is the difference between a taxidermist and a tax collector? The taxidermist only takes your skin. -- Mark Twain, December 30, 1902 When more of the people's sustenance is exacted through the form of taxation than is necessary to meet the just obligations of government and expenses of its economical administration, such exaction becomes ruthless extortion and a violation of the fundamental principles of a free government. -- U.S. President Grover Cleveland, December 1886. It would be great to be a tax attorney paid to search for loopholes in [a flat tax] world. -- William G. Gale All too often the IRS has used its enormous powers to unjustly and unfairly ruin people's lives and intimidate honest taxpayers. -- James A. Traficant, Jr. All the Congress, all the accountants and tax lawyers, all the judges, and a convention of wizards all cannot tell for sure what the income tax law says. -- Former Citicorp Chairman Walter B. Wriston Logic and taxation are not always the best of friends. -- Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court James C. McReynolds in Sonneborn Bros. v. Cureton Inflation is taxation without legislation. -- Milton Friedman A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -- Barry Goldwater America can have a simple income tax law anytime it wants it. -- Lauren Williams Liberty produces excessive taxes; the effect of excessive taxes is slavery. -- Charles Louis deSecondat, Baron de la Brede et de Montesquieu The corruption of democracies proceeds directly from the fact that one class imposes the taxes and another class pays them. The constitutional principle, "No taxation without representation," is utterly set at nought. -- W.R. Inge Unlike proportionality, progression provides no principle which tells us what the relative burden of different persons ought to be...the argument based on the presumed justice of progression provides no limitation, as has often been admitted by its supporters, before all incomes above a certain figure are confiscated, and those below left untaxed. -- Frederick A. Hayek Wherever a discretionary power is lodged in any set of men over the property of their neighbors, they will abuse it. -- Alexander Hamilton The Rosetta Stone...whose text in hieroglyphics, dometics, and Greek was the key to revealing the stories of ancient Egypt, was in fact a grant of tax immunity. Which is why, of course, it was engraved in stone and not on papyrus.-- Alvin Rabushka Next to being shot at and missed, nothing is quite as satisfying as an income tax refund. -- F.J. Raymond It is the part of the good shepherd to shear his flock, not flay it. -- Tiberius Caesar Cheating on federal and state income tax is all pervasive in all classes of society; except among the compulsively honest, cheating usually occurs in direct proportion to opportunity. -- Richard Neely To tell you the truth, there is not much difference between the IRS hotline and a fantasy phone sexline except it costs $4 a minute I guess for the fantasy phone sexline. -- James A. Traficant, Jr. Tarquin and Caesar each had his Brutus, Charles the First had his Cromwell, and George the Third may profit by their example. If this be treason, make the most of it. -- Patrick Henry on May 29, 1765, attacking the Stamp Act in the Virginia House of Burgesses. The taxpayer -- that's someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take a civil service examination. -- President Ronald Reagan, born on February 6, 1911.
I will certainly not keep my thoughts to myself. I will equally certainly not attempt to explain them to you.
I wish you all the happiness you can find. It will be a long and difficult search.
Best regards,
There are remedies available to the Sovereign Citizen to ensure quality government on any level.
Three of the four most common include:
The Ballot Box
The "Soap" Box
The Jury Box
Use them as frequently as necessary.
Best regards,
(b) Rate-
100+30%= $130.00
$130.00 (gross payment) minus 23% = $100.00
are you happy with the present system
Life isn't always an either or. I've studied the entire hr25 bill and probably know more than you would want me to say about it. If we're going to have a new system I would hope they/you wouldn't have to lie about what it is....the lie starts with the 23%rate itself, which happens to be for the first year only then thereafter would be determined by bureaucrats at SS.(see section 904, paragraphs d,e, and f)
and are you in the legal or accounting tax field?
No!
Now that's a good point. Although it would not wipe out the underground economy--it would just create a different kind of underground economy.
I was told quite some time ago by an "informed source in the Congress" that Rep. Delay was very keen to help us replace the income tax with a NRST.
I am very, very happy that he has signed on.
We can do this, but we need your help.
“I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” [Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800.]
We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.
Click here to help us scrap the Code, scrap the IRS and abolish the VLWC!
We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.
You can also click here to sign a petition in support of Fundamental Tax Replacement.
We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have the income tax and the IRS.
Statement of John G. Wilkins, Managing Director,
Barcroft Consulting Group, on behalf of National Retail FederationTestimony Before the House Committee on Ways and Means
Hearing on Fundamental Tax Reform
April 11, 2000
....Examined on a year-over-year basis, these price increases generally amount to a large, one-time hike in prices as the NRST is imposed, with some moderation of this increase in the longer run. Due to a weaker dollar, merchandise import prices increase by nearly 4 percent shortly after the NRST is imposed and are 6.5 percent over baseline levels in 2010. Merchandise export prices are also above baseline levels. In 2001 and 2002 they are nearly 3 percent above the baseline. However, due to lower interest rates, which reduce business costs, (They can't get much lower than they are today) export prices are only slightly greater than baseline levels for most of the remainder of the forecast period. The overall impact on prices is measured by the change in the GDP deflator, which initially rises 20 percent above the baseline price level before settling back to a 13 percent price rise relative to the baseline.....
The notion espoused by some that pre-tax prices would drop some 20-30 percent under a NRST (so that after-tax prices would not rise and may even decline) is a peculiar one. This could only happen if all of the personal income tax, the corporation income tax and payroll taxes are currently embodied in retail prices. Tax incidence -- that is, who actually bears the ultimate tax burden -- is an elusive question that has been the focus of many economic papers, because the answer is not clear. However, the general consensus among economists is that perhaps a portion of the corporate income tax may be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices, but that the majority is ultimately paid by corporate owners in the form of lower after-tax profits and by employees in the form of lower compensation. Most economists concede that personal income taxes and payroll taxes are ultimately borne by labor and are not passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices.
What happened to employee's getting 100% of their wage.
That's supposed to be bad? A 13% increase in costs in exchange for elimination of income and payroll taxes is a great deal.
perhaps a portion of the corporate income tax may be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices, but that the majority is ultimately paid by corporate owners in the form of lower after-tax profits and by employees in the form of lower compensation.
If this is true, then a NRST will also result in higher wages and more profits to shareholders.
Lawyers!
No, the National Grange does not support abolition of the IRS. We do not support abolition of the federal income tax. We support income tax reform. We do support abolition of the death tax. We strongly oppose a national sales tax or value added tax.
Thanks for trotting out Mr. Wilkins (on Behalf of the National Retail Federation) I will add large retailers to the list of those who do not care for the NRST.
Interesting that Mr. Wilkins states..but that the majority( corporate taxes) is ultimately paid by corporate owners in the form of lower after-tax profits and by employees in the form of lower compensation.
This clearly to me illustrates that eliminating corporate taxes will allow for more profits or lower prices, amazing isn't it, just worded differently. As for lower compensation to employees because of the corporate taxes, that shows that eliminating corporate taxes would allow employees to be paid more (or reduce prices). Once again just a play on words.
As I stated their NET wage would be the same (100%)as currently, the payroll taxes are eliminated by NRST. Another benefit is that income taxes would not be deducted and the NRST would only be paid at time of purchase not in advance.....
If this is true, then a NRST will also result in higher wages and more profits to shareholders.
No fair using logic or common sense, this is not what the man was trying to convey, he was turning his statement the other way to try and support his paid position...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.