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Negotiators approve flag compromise (GA State Flag)
Atlanta Journal Constitution ^ | 04/04/03 | Jim Galloway

Posted on 04/04/2003 11:09:24 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa

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To: WhiskeyPapa
"I'd vote for Gore again over Bush jr. It was a no-brainer that if Junior was elected, we'd have Senior running things, and I bet he is. Surely no one thinks that Junior has enough brains to get all this rolling. Cheney and Powell are going to run the war -- to clean up the mess they made 12 years ago."---Whiskey Papa

I see Jim Robinson is still letting you hang around, eh?

81 posted on 04/04/2003 4:30:00 PM PST by Godebert
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To: Michael.SF.
What "equality" are you refering to?

The 13th and 14th amendments, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, stuff like that.

Walt

82 posted on 04/04/2003 5:06:45 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Michael.SF.
Before you make references to the Civil War, you may also want to review the 10th Amendment.

The 10th amendment has nothing to do with the ACW. Congress is given the clear power to provide for the common defense and general welfare in the Constitution.

And, it is not only the Constitution, but also the laws that are the supreme law of the land.

See the Militia Act of 1792 as amended in 1795 and the Judiciary Act of 1789.

The 10th amendment never came into play in the rebellion.

Walt

83 posted on 04/04/2003 5:10:52 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The 13th and 14th amendments, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, stuff like that.

I note, in your flipant response, that you ignore the inequalities that I mentioned. Why in your mind are some "equalities" more equal then others?

Instead of simply responding as you did, why not address the lack of equality that the government forces upon us?

84 posted on 04/04/2003 5:35:07 PM PST by Michael.SF. ('Lack of concensus is no excuse for lack of leadership' - M. Thatcher)
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To: Michael.SF.
I don't disagree with that. I'd say that at least the government no longer helps one man keep another in chains.

That's good, right?

Walt

85 posted on 04/04/2003 5:38:08 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The 10th amendment never came into play in the rebellion.

The 10th amendment, as you know, gave all powers not specifically mentioned, to the states. Thus the State was considered to be of greater importance then the federal government, which at that time had minimal duties and responsibilites (especially compared to today). Thus, if a State did infact decide that the Constituion, which was an experiment, and still in infancy, was no longer serving the needs of the state, a state was within their rights to consider the Constituion desolved.

Additonal comment on the 10th Amendment, I have often wondered why no one has filed (at least to my knowledge), a lawsuit against an act of Congress, as being a violation of the 10th Amendment.

I wonder if you also consider the participants in the rebellion of 1776 to be traitors? After all they defied the laws of the land at the time.

86 posted on 04/04/2003 5:44:11 PM PST by Michael.SF. ('Lack of concensus is no excuse for lack of leadership' - M. Thatcher)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
That's good, right?

Now, you seem to be suggesting that by defending the actions of the Confederacy, I am also advocating a support of slavery. Nice try. Intelligent people can separate the various causes for the War of Succession, and argue the overall merits of the case on apoint by point basis. Or at least they should be able to.

On Slavery, hands down, the South loses and I have no support for them on this issue. But when one considers the other various reasons, then I do support the South and their cause was just.

Too many people are blinded by the one over riding issue.

Also, if Lincoln could have, he would have enede the war and retained Slavery. His reasons for issuing the Emancipation was not fully out of kindness for the downtroden.

87 posted on 04/04/2003 5:50:55 PM PST by Michael.SF. ('Lack of concensus is no excuse for lack of leadership' - M. Thatcher)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
This is a bad flag also.

...there you have it! Straight from the mouth of the south-hating PC-monger who also made these statements:

"All these deaths of U.S. citizens --the death of EVERY U.S. citizen killed by Arab terror in the United States, can be laid directly at the feet of George Bush I." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=452#448

"I'll say again that based on what I knew in 1992, I would vote for Bill Clinton ten times out of ten before I would vote for George Bush Sr." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?q=1&&page=401#420

"As you doubtless know, the separation of powers in that Pact with the Devil we call our Constitution, gives only Congress the right to raise and spend money." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=432#432

"First of all, the AJC [Atlanta Journal-Constitution] is -not- an "ultra-leftist" newspaper, and you know it." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/13/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/784464/posts?page=70#70

"I feel that admiration for Reagan has rightly diminished over time, and rightly so." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=432#432

"I don't retract any of that." - WhiskeyPapa in reference to the liberal statements found above, 11/26/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/796067/posts?page=146#146

"If you non-U.S. citizens are wondering what the electoral college is and what bunch of ninnies thought it up:  The US Constitution was written by rich white men like Washington, Madison, Hamilton, Randolph, and others.   They wrote it for the benefit of rich white men like themselves.  They didn't trust the common man --at all--, hence the college of electors, who didn't (and don't) necessarily have to vote for the candidate that carries their state.  Here in Georgia, I didn't vote for Al Gore.  I voted for nine Democratic Party hacks that promise to vote for Al when the college meets in December.  Yeah, I know its crazy, but it works." - Walt, aka WhiskeyPapa, explaining the electoral college to Europeans, 11/12/00
SOURCE: soc.history.war.world-war-ii newsgroup

"What the Reagan adminstration did was worse than Watergate. But he was a nicer guy than Nixon, so he skated. Also, despite all the Reagan worship, I don't think he ever made a tough decision." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/10/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859649/posts?page=38#38

"I think the Bushes both to incompetent clowns." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/10/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/859649/posts?page=38#38

"I'd vote for Gore again over Bush jr. It was a no-brainer that if Junior was elected, we'd have Senior running things, and I bet he is. Surely no one thinks that Junior has enough brains to get all this rolling. Cheney and Powell are going to run the war -- to clean up the mess they made 12 years ago." - WhiskeyPapa, 3/18/03
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/866612/posts?page=19#19

88 posted on 04/04/2003 6:24:45 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Grow Up!
89 posted on 04/04/2003 7:00:45 PM PST by the_rightside
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Even up here (PA) I tend to see the Confederate flag a lot, depending on where I am at the time, and, to not put too fine a point on it, depending on who's company I'm in. If I'm in a heavily populated area about the only time I ever see it is on the front of a pickup truck (we don't require front license plates here so you can put what you like there) or being worn by a biker. When I go inland towards rural PA, however, I see it a lot more (still only on license plates, but it's a lot more common). I also have some friends in the rock band scene, and in some of the places they play the'll wear the flag openly. It's really weird--bear in mind this is a *northern* state. I'm wondering if a lot of the Confederate- and Southern-bashing going on isn't so much due to northerners hating the South as urbanites hating rural folks. From conversations I hear where I live (southeast PA, which is pretty heavily populated) people here seem to hold rural folks in universal contempt.

North vs. South? Or City mouse vs. country mouse? Comments welcome.
90 posted on 04/04/2003 7:25:01 PM PST by Windcatcher ("So what did Doug use?" "He used...sarcasm!")
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To: the_rightside
Can I conclude then that you consider Walt's known and documented remarks are acceptable for a conservative forum?

It is a matter of fact that WhiskeyPapa, aka Walt, is a left wing Bush-hating, Reagan-hating, south-hating Clinton-Gore voting PC monger. His remarks on this thread are merely the latest in that same tradition. For whatever reason, he is still allowed post here and post things such as those I quoted here. Now don't get me wrong - I have no intentions of seeking his removal...only publicizing his true leftist colors to the otherwise unsuspecting who assume that he is, along with almost everyone else around here, a conservative.

91 posted on 04/04/2003 8:34:18 PM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Michael.SF.
Also, if Lincoln could have, he would have enede the war and retained Slavery.

That is what he indicated to Horace Greeley in August, 1862.

After black soldiers were enlisted to fight for the Union, Lincoln began clearing the way for equal rights for them. That is why Booth shot him.

Walt

92 posted on 04/05/2003 3:59:26 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Michael.SF.
His reasons for issuing the Emancipation was not fully out of kindness for the downtroden.

The EP was a war measure.

There is also no doubt that President Lincoln personally detested slavery, and thought it should be eliminated. That is why his election was a clarion call to the slave power to throw down the lawful government.

Walt

93 posted on 04/05/2003 4:03:03 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: Michael.SF.
The 10th amendment, as you know, gave all powers not specifically mentioned, to the states.

And Congress has the power to provide for the common defense and general welfare. The 10th amendment doesn't even apply. You alo totally ignore the fact that the Constitution states that the laws made in pursuance of the Constitution are also the supreme law of the land. That includes the Militia Act and the Judiciary Act. The 10th amendment doesn't apply.

You've been duped.

Jefferson Davis, citing language identical to that in the US constitution, said that the federal government COULD coerce the states:

"The Confederate Constitution, he [Davis] pointed out to [Governor] Brown, gave Congress the power "to raise and support armies" and to "provide for the common defense." It also contained another clause (likewise copied from the U.S. Constitution) empowering Congress to make all laws "necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers." Brown had denied the constitutionality of conscription because the Constitution did not specifically authorize it. This was good Jeffersonian doctrine, sanctified by generations of southern strict constructionists. But in Hamiltonian language, Davis insisted that the "necessary and proper" clause legitimized conscription. No one could doubt the necessity "when our very existance is threatened by armies vastly superior in numbers." Therefore "the true and only test is to enquire whether the law is intended and calculated to carry out the object...if the answer be in the affirmative, the law is constitutional."

--Battle Cry of Freedom, James McPherson P.433

Note that quote from J. Davis: "provide for the common defense"? Ouch. Surely if Jefferson Davis could raise troops on this basis, Abraham Lincoln could.

After all, the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and it, as you will admit, predates the secessionist document.

Confederate apologists strain at the gnat and swallow the camel:

"In the case now to be determined, the defendant, a sovereign state, denies the obligation of a law enacted by the legislature of the Union...In discussing this question, the counsel for the state of Maryland deemed it of some importance, in the construction of the Constitution, to consider that instrument as not emanating from the people, but as the act of sovereign and independent states. The powers of the general government, it has been said, are delegated by the states, who alone are truly sovereign; and must be exercised in subordination to the states, who alone possess supreme dominion. It would be difficult to sustain this proposition. "

And:

"To the formation of a league, such as was the confederation, the State sovereignties were certainly competent. But when "in order to form a more perfect union," it was deemed necessary to change the alliance into an effective government, possessing great and sovereign powers, and acting directly on the people, the necessity of deriving its powers from them, was felt and acknowledged by all... "

And:

If any one proposition could command the universal assent of mankind, we might expect that it would be this -- that the government of the Union, though limited in its powers, is supreme within its sphere of action. This would seem to result, necessarily, from its nature. It is the government of all; its powers are delegated by all; it represents all; and acts for all. Though any one state may be willing to control its operations, no state is willing to allow others to control them. The nation, on those subjects on which it can act, must necessarily bind its component parts. But this question is not left to mere reason; the people have, in express terms, have decided it, by saying, "this constitution, and the laws made in pursuance thereof,: shall be the supreme law of the land," and by requiring that the members of the state legislatures, and the officers of the executive and judicial departments of the states, shall take an oath of fidelity to it. The government of the United States, then, though limited in its powers, is supreme; and its laws, when made in pursuance of the constitution, form the supreme law of the land, "anything in the constitution or laws of any state, to the contrary notwithstanding."

And:

"Among the enumerated powers, we do not find that of establishing a bank or of creating a corporation. But there is no phrase in the instrument which, like the articles of confederation, excludes incidental or implied powers; and which requires that everything granted shall be expressly and minutely described. Even the 10th amendment, which was framed for the purpose of quieting the excessive jealousies which had been excited, omits the word "expressly," and declares that the powers "not delegated to the United States, nor prohibited to the states are reserved to the states or to the people," thus leaving the question, whether the particular power which may become the subject of contest, has been delegated to the one government, or prohibited to the other, to depend on a fair reading of the whole instument... It would probably never be understood by the public. Its nature, therefore, requires, that only its great outlines should be marked, its important objectives designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects,, be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves. That is the idea entertained by the framers of the American constitution, is not only to be inferred from the nature of the instrument, but from its language. Why else were some of the limitations, found in the 9th section of the 1st article, introduced? ....

The subject is the execution of those great powers on which the welfare of the nation essentially depends. It must have been the intention of those who gave these powers, to insure, their beneficial execution. This could not be done, by confining the choice of means to such narrow limits as not to leave it in the power of congress to adopt any which might be appropriate, and which were conclusive to the end. "

--John Marshall, Chief Justice, writing in McCullough v. Maryland, 1819

Jiminy Cricket, Jefferson Davis sounds just like Chief Justice Marshall!

The idea of legal unilateral state secession under our system is nonsense.

Walt

94 posted on 04/05/2003 4:27:32 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa (Be copy now to men of grosser blood and teach them how to war!)
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To: the_rightside
It is a matter of fact that GOPCapitalist, aka GOTCrap, is a neo-confederate , Union-hating, Lincoln-hating, north-hating Southern Independence Party SIP-voting cyber stalker. His remarks on this thread are merely the latest in that same tradition. For whatever reason, he is still allowed post here, but he has had some of his more agregious crap pulled.

Now don't get me wrong - I have no intentions of seeking his removal...only publicizing his true SIP colors to the otherwise unsuspecting who assume that he is, along with almost everyone else around here, a Republican.

Actually GOTCrap has an almost Ahab like hatred/obsession with Abraham Lincoln. He's projected this hatred on anyone perceived to defend Lincoln, including ol Walt. He can be pretty viscious when cornered (like most weasels) so watch your fingers..

GOPCapitalist => SIPDemogogue

95 posted on 04/05/2003 7:27:04 AM PST by mac_truck (old europe is senile, so is the old south)
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To: #3Fan
"As an aside, I don't have any problem with the Confederate flag. It was a soldier's flag and represents the American fighting spirit and national duty more than the actual cause of the Civil War."

Good for you, but Walt may relieve you of duty for this.

He may even call it "manure", "lies", or even worse. Watch out for incoming.

96 posted on 04/05/2003 9:07:11 AM PST by PeaRidge
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Am I the only one in the state of Georgia that thinks our flag stinks because it has the state seal on it? Dump that and you could start getting creative.

What is the point of having a state seal and a state flag if your state seal is on the flag? Let's see a parade of the other state flags and see how many of them are simply a combination of other state symbols? If they are - They are stupid too.

97 posted on 04/05/2003 9:11:49 AM PST by gatechie
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To: GaConfed
"Frankly rattrap, I don't give a rat's A$$ about Atlanta, or how much business Atlanta loses out on. It's the most soulless place on earth because it tries to be everything except what it should be; a SOUTHERN city. It can evolve into one big ole rust heap as far as I'm concerned. Atlanta has nothing to do with my life out here in the REAL Georgia, and that is the way I like it.

Great post. Sounds just like what your ancestors said about Boston, Lincoln, and the business community thriving on Southern trade with England.

Mercantilism vs. Southern Economy in 1861 is just the same as Atlanta vs. rural Georgia is today.

Forget about the "big picture" and live your life as you want, and as your ancestors should have had the right to do in 1861.

98 posted on 04/05/2003 9:25:04 AM PST by PeaRidge
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To: WhiskeyPapa
YEP it is.

and i predict right now that it will be shot down and the post-1956 flag will fly again EVERYWHERE in GA!

the CSA desendents will accept NOTHING less. NOT now, NOT ever!

free dixie,sw

99 posted on 04/05/2003 9:32:37 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. : Thomas Jefferson 1774)
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To: HELLRAISER II
not only is WP a scalawag, but also a Clinton/Gore fan!

i keep suggesting that he head over to DU, where they'll LOVE his anti-southron ideas, but alas, NO SUCH LUCK!

FRee dixie,sw

100 posted on 04/05/2003 9:37:21 AM PST by stand watie (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. : Thomas Jefferson 1774)
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