Posted on 03/30/2003 7:38:16 AM PST by weegee
The fundamental problem with software design verification is that marginal reductions in the number of defects have an essentially exponential cost. The market has declared that it is unwilling to pay ten times as much for software as they do in exchange for not having to patch as many bugs. There are companies and applications that actually do a proper rigorous design verification, going as far as doing module level proofs of correctness, but this is extremely complicated and costs a fortune. The only people that can afford software applications that reliable is the military and similar. A defect in a single line of code can cause a million line application to subtly fail in ways that are nearly impossible to detect. Proving the correctness of an application that large is an exercise in the intractable.
So it boils down to economics. Virtually no one can afford to eliminate all defects in non-trivial software applications, certainly not for the consumer market. It is the nature of the beast. Comparing it to conventional engineering is apples and oranges.
IMO engineering is a practice or a method, not a set of passed classes. A relative of mine worked as an engineer for Aerojet in the early years of the aerospace industry and had never been to college.
Just because you've been to school doesn't mean you know jack about "engineering".
Licenses are a way for the anointed ones to limit the market and keep prices high. If someone cares enough, it's easy to check to see if the engineer in question knows his stuff and has the credentials in place.
Could you imagine living in this world minus the things that have been engineered by people who did not hold a degree.
Let me just say that this entire discussion is almost laughable. Just because a man (or woman) has gone to a college or university, earned a degree, and then took a test and passed it; does not mean he/she is a good engineer.
While in the Marines I was sent to a school called AVIC-7. The school was a an engineering immersion course that lasted 12 months, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Virtually every engineering subject was taught. It was heavy on electrical and mechanical courses but also included courses like radio wave propagation, metallic anomaly detection, hydraulics and numerous other courses. After leaving the military I started working in an environment where I was surrounded by highly educated engineers from many of the most prestigious universities, including one engineer in particular that was a West Point grad with a MSEE from MIT. After working with me for about six months, he and a number of other highly degreed engineers, some with the highly touted PE behind their names, would come to me for verification and / or confirmation of their work. When I told them I was unqualified to do that they just laughed and insisted that they needed my help.
In another instance; a friend of mine that had the same military background as me eventually went to the University of Texas and earned his BSEE. He was on the Dean’s list every semester. When I asked him if he learned anything in his engineering courses his responses was “Hell no! The reason I was able to stay on the dean’s list all the time was because I slept through my engineering courses and focused on all the other stuff!”
So my point is this: I have always been regarded as a top-notch engineer in both the electrical and mechanical fields. However, the only way I was able to overcome the stigma of not having a professional degree or a PE behind my name, was to start my own business. (It is amazing how having a card that says President on it automatically make you above reproach.) I would do my own designs and then pay a PE to review and stamp the drawings for me. I eventually turned my company into a $50M / year design-build firm. Now that’s my success story. But not everyone is a risk taker like me and I would like to see other’s like me, that have received our level of technical education in a non-university setting; get the proper recognition they deserve. There are thousands of men and women trained like I was that cannot make the pay or get the recognition they deserve because they never went to a college or university. It is a horrible inequity. I appreciate the guys that do go to good schools and get their degrees! I have lots of you working for me. But I want everyone to know that a degree does make an engineer a good engineer. It just means you can study and pass tests. The real test is how you do in real life and if I, or any others like me, surpass a degreed person(s) in talent, then we deserve the title ENGINEER as much as anyone!
Maybe one of you can engineer a fix for this problem?
Why not “Registered Programmer”?
They see the title of “Engineer” as having value (or they wouldnt want to usurp it), but do not wish to actually attain it.
It’s not that hard to become a PE.
“What about those who have not just an engr. degree from an accredited school, but one from a top rated Engineering program like Stanford or U of Illinois? For example a MS/PHDEE from Stanford? Can they claim to be engineers, or do they have to get permission from these Texas hicks? “
Well, for someone with such stellar credentials, the FE and then the PE exam would be a snap! Why not get it if you think there is value in being an “engineer”?
Those same texas hicks insist you have a drivers license too, who do they think they are?
On beef I have, as a PE, is the parochial way of individual state boards. Reciprocity between states should be easier, but that’s another matter.
“Software engineering is too new and varied to be licensed. And, the public-safety aspect of software engineering is missing, so the state should just butt out. “
The issue is that universally applicable standards of software engineering are not applied. They could be, but nobody has bothered - and to be fair it’s a cost issue.
So that’s to their detriment. You can’t tell the difference on a card between a hacker and someone with a true design background applying rigorous engineering principles.
They want the title, but don’t want to go through the effort to earn it. that should tell you everything.
” I don’t see why PEs should have a monopoly on the use of the word “engineer.” They should only have a monopoly on the phrase “Registered Professional Engineer.””
Because “Engineer” implies that one is duly trained and educated to apply the principles of engineering and has placed oneself accountable to an engineering board, with liabilities and responsibilities.
Other folks want the title but don’t want the responsibility.
It SHOULD be easier for an engineer in one state to practice in another - THAT is a matter of politics and fees, that should be fixed.
“Traditional engineering pursuits are clinging to the concept that engineering involves creation of tangible, durable objects”
No.
Engineers design. They ensure that proper standards and codes as required are implemented properly.
A design is not necessarily a tangible durable object.
” I’m still not allowed to call myself a “Network Engineer”. “
Why would you? You assume no liability, you do not understand the concepts of responsible charge, and you claim your specialty is so narrow that you couldn’t possibly be accountable to an engineering board.
You COULD try “Network Architect”, but then the Board of Architects would come after you for much the same reason.
You DO want the title of “Engineer” because you think it has value, but you do not wish to submit your work to a process involving engineering accountability.
Relax, call yourself something else - but whatever you think you are, you are NOT an engineer.
“You haven’t seen the testing standards we employ for software. My last project had over 7,000 pages of testing requirements. The testing took 9 people close to a year. I’m not willing to shut down a billion dollar enterprise by inadequate testing.”
A project and responsibilities like this speak for themselves, they just don’t speak the word “engineer” in any lawful manner.
Software Engineering principles certainly CAN be applied with the same rigor as any other engineering discipline, and I think that it would have value to do so - but it would cost more and so it’s not done.
That said, on my EE PE exam, I had a couple of software questions - one was a boot loader written in a concocted assembly language.
so a software engineer COULD obtain licensing as an EE (and definitions vary by state - but some say if you are moving electrons, you ccan be registered as an EE and SE can be considered and sometimes is considered that - I used that as part of my experience when I was originally licensed - no problem)
“Any man that does the job deserves the title”
The law says he can use that title internally to a company all he wants, but the second he offers to provide Engineering or Design Services outside his company, he must be registered.
There is a reason for it, you think it’s pompous and self-agrandizing - but it’s not that hard to become a PE, but it doesn’t take “zero” effort.
“Very few electrical engineers understand Maxwell equations, and if they do, it is because of their extra-curricular curiousity. The one who needs to understand it is a scientist; all engineer does is applying it to solve concrete problems”
If an engineer were solving “concrete problems” he’d likely be a civil engineer, not an electrical engineer, in which case, I’d agree, maxwells equations would not be important.
(kiddin’ of course)
I’m not a trained, qualified, certified engineer in any field so I don’t have a dog in this fight per se, except to point out that this smells like another government money grabbing scheme by netting more licensing fees from the growing number of software “engineers” entering the state for work. Sounds to me like the Texas legislature sees an opportunity to scoop up extra $$$ over semantics in the term “engineer”.
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