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An engineer by any other name- Texas Legislature to decide if programmers can legally use title
Houston Chronicle ^ | March 29, 2003, 11:53PM | R.G. RATCLIFFE

Posted on 03/30/2003 7:38:16 AM PST by weegee

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To: Rubber_Duckie_27
Like any technical field there are few, whether degreed or not, that are truly skilled and creative in their field. It has been my long experience that a degree is no guarantee of competency. In most cases it certainly helps though. Love for what one does and the willingness to learn and adapt are the biggest determining factors if you ask me.
61 posted on 03/30/2003 6:17:40 PM PST by DB (©)
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To: algol
I guess my point is that, unless you know absolutely all the possible uses your software will be put, you'd better write it as though somebody's life depended on it, because it might.

The fundamental problem with software design verification is that marginal reductions in the number of defects have an essentially exponential cost. The market has declared that it is unwilling to pay ten times as much for software as they do in exchange for not having to patch as many bugs. There are companies and applications that actually do a proper rigorous design verification, going as far as doing module level proofs of correctness, but this is extremely complicated and costs a fortune. The only people that can afford software applications that reliable is the military and similar. A defect in a single line of code can cause a million line application to subtly fail in ways that are nearly impossible to detect. Proving the correctness of an application that large is an exercise in the intractable.

So it boils down to economics. Virtually no one can afford to eliminate all defects in non-trivial software applications, certainly not for the consumer market. It is the nature of the beast. Comparing it to conventional engineering is apples and oranges.

62 posted on 03/30/2003 6:42:08 PM PST by tortoise
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To: tortoise
Actually, if you write good code you don't have as many problems. It's also a lot easier to vigourously test code at the module level before it is integrated with the entire system.

It is very expensive to fix bugs after the system has been integrated.
63 posted on 03/30/2003 7:04:02 PM PST by luckystarmom
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To: sam_paine
If you worked at SBC on PSTN under a BSEE w/ PE, you might could get licensed.



LOL

While the company was not SBC, I did work with a major telco on both their PSTN and data networks. Also with the BSEE and PEs on staff. The reason I find it funny is that I was the one telling there staff what they needed to do. Not only from a "build the network" perspective but I also was working with management on how to implement a staffing and training program that would keep their PEs skills up.

The irony is just too rich.
64 posted on 03/30/2003 7:59:16 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: weegee
Unless you're signing a drawing, it's a meaningless difference. IMO if you've passed the PE, and you want to set yourself apart as an "Engineer", put PE after your title.
65 posted on 03/30/2003 8:42:16 PM PST by cruiserman
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To: saluki_in_ohio
It makes me a little sick that I spent 4 1/2 years studying engineering in an ABET accredited school, then 2 1/2 years in an engineering graduate program so I can become a licensed engineer, while some 'script kiddie' with a high-school diploma and a little bit of knowledge of Visual Basic can be called a 'software engineer'.

IMO engineering is a practice or a method, not a set of passed classes. A relative of mine worked as an engineer for Aerojet in the early years of the aerospace industry and had never been to college.

Just because you've been to school doesn't mean you know jack about "engineering".

66 posted on 03/30/2003 8:46:16 PM PST by cruiserman
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To: cruiserman
IMO engineering is a practice or a method, not a set of passed classes. A relative of mine worked as an engineer for Aerojet in the early years of the aerospace industry and had never been to college.

You didn't seem to get my point. I should have made it a little clearer.

To become a licensed professional engineer, you need to have graduated with a BS in Engineering from an ABET accredited school AND pass a couple of exams, one being the Fundamentals of Engineering(FE) exam and AFTER five years of engineering experience, the Professional Engineers exam.

The PE exam is fairly rigorous exam, testing ones knowledge of all disciplines of engineering. Many engineers don't pass it the first time. When someone has five years of engineering experience and passing that exam. Based on that evidence, I would say that person very likely does know "jack" about engineering.

I have worked with many people who have a great deal of engineering knowledge gained through many years of experience in the field, and I have a great deal of respect for them. In previous years in some states one could become a licensed professional engineer by substituting 8-10 years of engineering experience AND passing the FE and PE exams.

To be an engineer requires education, experience, and licensure. To call someone an engineer without having a license to practice engineering is misleading and IMHO dangerous. Would you let a medical doctor operate on you who didn't have a license to practice medicine?

I agree your premise that education does not an engineer make, nevertheless, there needs to be stricter regulations as to whom can call themselves "engineers".
67 posted on 03/31/2003 4:17:08 AM PST by saluki_in_ohio (Gun control is the ability to hit your target!)
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To: saluki_in_ohio
I understand the process in becoming a licensed engineer as I'm in the field. I would compromise and say that someone shouldn't use "licensed engineer" in his title if he has not jumped through the hoops.

Licenses are a way for the anointed ones to limit the market and keep prices high. If someone cares enough, it's easy to check to see if the engineer in question knows his stuff and has the credentials in place.

68 posted on 03/31/2003 8:25:39 AM PST by cruiserman
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To: weegee
The lack of a degree will never, and rightfully so, stop people from engineering things.

Could you imagine living in this world minus the things that have been engineered by people who did not hold a degree.

69 posted on 03/31/2003 8:34:25 AM PST by fightu4it (allyourbasearebelongtous!)
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To: weegee

Let me just say that this entire discussion is almost laughable. Just because a man (or woman) has gone to a college or university, earned a degree, and then took a test and passed it; does not mean he/she is a good engineer.

While in the Marines I was sent to a school called AVIC-7. The school was a an engineering immersion course that lasted 12 months, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Virtually every engineering subject was taught. It was heavy on electrical and mechanical courses but also included courses like radio wave propagation, metallic anomaly detection, hydraulics and numerous other courses. After leaving the military I started working in an environment where I was surrounded by highly educated engineers from many of the most prestigious universities, including one engineer in particular that was a West Point grad with a MSEE from MIT. After working with me for about six months, he and a number of other highly degreed engineers, some with the highly touted “PE” behind their names, would come to me for verification and / or confirmation of their work. When I told them I was “unqualified” to do that they just laughed and insisted that they needed my help.

In another instance; a friend of mine that had the same military background as me eventually went to the University of Texas and earned his BSEE. He was on the Dean’s list every semester. When I asked him if he learned anything in his engineering courses his responses was “Hell no! The reason I was able to stay on the dean’s list all the time was because I slept through my engineering courses and focused on all the other stuff!”

So my point is this: I have always been regarded as a top-notch engineer in both the electrical and mechanical fields. However, the only way I was able to overcome the stigma of not having a professional degree or a PE behind my name, was to start my own business. (It is amazing how having a card that says “President” on it automatically make you above reproach.) I would do my own designs and then pay a PE to review and stamp the drawings for me. I eventually turned my company into a $50M / year design-build firm. Now that’s my success story. But not everyone is a risk taker like me and I would like to see other’s like me, that have received our level of technical education in a non-university setting; get the proper recognition they deserve. There are thousands of men and women trained like I was that cannot make the pay or get the recognition they deserve because they never went to a college or university. It is a horrible inequity. I appreciate the guys that do go to good schools and get their degrees! I have lots of you working for me. But I want everyone to know that a degree does make an engineer a good engineer. It just means you can study and pass tests. The real test is how you do in real life and if I, or any others like me, surpass a degreed person(s) in talent, then we deserve the title ENGINEER as much as anyone!

Maybe one of you can “engineer” a fix for this problem?


70 posted on 10/17/2012 5:45:04 AM PDT by NoDegree (College Degrees - Are they really significant?)
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To: weegee

Why not “Registered Programmer”?

They see the title of “Engineer” as having value (or they wouldnt want to usurp it), but do not wish to actually attain it.

It’s not that hard to become a PE.


71 posted on 10/17/2012 6:12:16 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: nwrep

“What about those who have not just an engr. degree from an accredited school, but one from a top rated Engineering program like Stanford or U of Illinois? For example a MS/PHDEE from Stanford? Can they claim to be engineers, or do they have to get permission from these Texas hicks? “

Well, for someone with such stellar credentials, the FE and then the PE exam would be a snap! Why not get it if you think there is value in being an “engineer”?

Those same texas hicks insist you have a drivers license too, who do they think they are?

On beef I have, as a PE, is the parochial way of individual state boards. Reciprocity between states should be easier, but that’s another matter.


72 posted on 10/17/2012 6:15:22 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Tax Government

“Software engineering is too new and varied to be licensed. And, the public-safety aspect of software engineering is missing, so the state should just butt out. “

The issue is that universally applicable standards of software engineering are not applied. They could be, but nobody has bothered - and to be fair it’s a cost issue.

So that’s to their detriment. You can’t tell the difference on a card between a hacker and someone with a true design background applying rigorous engineering principles.

They want the title, but don’t want to go through the effort to earn it. that should tell you everything.


73 posted on 10/17/2012 6:18:42 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Pearls Before Swine

” I don’t see why PEs should have a monopoly on the use of the word “engineer.” They should only have a monopoly on the phrase “Registered Professional Engineer.””

Because “Engineer” implies that one is duly trained and educated to apply the principles of engineering and has placed oneself accountable to an engineering board, with liabilities and responsibilities.

Other folks want the title but don’t want the responsibility.

It SHOULD be easier for an engineer in one state to practice in another - THAT is a matter of politics and fees, that should be fixed.


74 posted on 10/17/2012 6:22:59 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Amerigomag

“Traditional engineering pursuits are clinging to the concept that engineering involves creation of tangible, durable objects”

No.

Engineers design. They ensure that proper standards and codes as required are implemented properly.

A design is not necessarily a tangible durable object.


75 posted on 10/17/2012 6:25:58 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: taxcontrol

” I’m still not allowed to call myself a “Network Engineer”. “

Why would you? You assume no liability, you do not understand the concepts of responsible charge, and you claim your specialty is so narrow that you couldn’t possibly be accountable to an engineering board.

You COULD try “Network Architect”, but then the Board of Architects would come after you for much the same reason.

You DO want the title of “Engineer” because you think it has value, but you do not wish to submit your work to a process involving engineering accountability.

Relax, call yourself something else - but whatever you think you are, you are NOT an engineer.


76 posted on 10/17/2012 6:31:48 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: gitmo

“You haven’t seen the testing standards we employ for software. My last project had over 7,000 pages of testing requirements. The testing took 9 people close to a year. I’m not willing to shut down a billion dollar enterprise by inadequate testing.”

A project and responsibilities like this speak for themselves, they just don’t speak the word “engineer” in any lawful manner.

Software Engineering principles certainly CAN be applied with the same rigor as any other engineering discipline, and I think that it would have value to do so - but it would cost more and so it’s not done.

That said, on my EE PE exam, I had a couple of software questions - one was a boot loader written in a concocted assembly language.

so a software engineer COULD obtain licensing as an EE (and definitions vary by state - but some say if you are moving electrons, you ccan be registered as an EE and SE can be considered and sometimes is considered that - I used that as part of my experience when I was originally licensed - no problem)


77 posted on 10/17/2012 6:38:06 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: ALS

“Any man that does the job deserves the title”

The law says he can use that title internally to a company all he wants, but the second he offers to provide Engineering or Design Services outside his company, he must be registered.

There is a reason for it, you think it’s pompous and self-agrandizing - but it’s not that hard to become a PE, but it doesn’t take “zero” effort.


78 posted on 10/17/2012 6:41:09 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: TopQuark

“Very few electrical engineers understand Maxwell equations, and if they do, it is because of their extra-curricular curiousity. The one who needs to understand it is a scientist; all engineer does is applying it to solve concrete problems”

If an engineer were solving “concrete problems” he’d likely be a civil engineer, not an electrical engineer, in which case, I’d agree, maxwells equations would not be important.

(kiddin’ of course)


79 posted on 10/17/2012 6:46:49 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: weegee

I’m not a trained, qualified, certified engineer in any field so I don’t have a dog in this fight per se, except to point out that this smells like another government money grabbing scheme by netting more licensing fees from the growing number of software “engineers” entering the state for work. Sounds to me like the Texas legislature sees an opportunity to scoop up extra $$$ over semantics in the term “engineer”.


80 posted on 10/17/2012 6:48:30 AM PDT by TADSLOS (Conservatism didn't magically show up in Romney's heart in 2012. You can't force what isn't in you.)
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