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MidAmerican plans world's largest wind farm in Iowa
Quad City Times ^ | March 25, 2003 | Kathie Obradovich

Posted on 03/26/2003 6:58:12 AM PST by newgeezer

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To: TomHarkinIsNotFromIowa
The Communist State of Minnesota is becoming more conservative than us.

Ain't that the truth! With the People's Republic of Minnesota replacing Wellstone with a Republican, and about to pass a shall-issue concealed carry bill, something's not right with the world.

Meanwhile, we have a second-term Democrat governor challenging the Dungheap for the title of Iowa's Biggest Embarassment.

21 posted on 03/26/2003 7:41:08 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: newgeezer
This week there was also news about a major step forward in using ethanol, chemically, to charge batteries--I'll see if I can find it. Didn't make much of a media stir, but it sounded exciting. I was thinking, "Take *that*, sand fleas!"
22 posted on 03/26/2003 7:41:41 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: The Great RJ
"The problem with wind mills as electric generators is the wind doesn't always blow when you need the electricity."

Very true. So when the wind comes up, the utility has to make a decision whether to dispach the windmills or not. Coal-fired plants, especially large ones, aren't all that throttleable (?) to accomodate the vagaries of the wind.

In short, wind power is mostly a pain in the butt, still it generates SOME power, just don't expect it to deliver the rated output 24/7.

23 posted on 03/26/2003 7:43:34 AM PST by nightdriver
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To: newgeezer
Here 'tis, save your flat beer, it could air condition your house!
24 posted on 03/26/2003 7:43:41 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Young Werther
I love the way you think! We could produce the equivalent of all the power we use in Iowa, plus or minus windless times, and you'd be hard pressed to even find the windmills. People out there that criticize wind power as not being dense enough have no clue how big the country is.
25 posted on 03/26/2003 7:55:20 AM PST by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: Mamzelle; biblewonk
Thanks!
26 posted on 03/26/2003 8:15:10 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: boris
Ever been to Curacao?

The wind farms there are pretty impressive.

They seem to work just fine. The western hemisphere's biggest oil refinery is located in Curacao....You'd think if oil was so cheap, they wouldn't bother with wind farms.

I guess they figure it's cheaper / cleaner than burning oil.
27 posted on 03/26/2003 8:22:19 AM PST by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: boris
I was thinking of hydrogen cells. The answer is probably not blowing in the wind.

Other note: There is no oil crisis, nor has there been one. The amount of reserves has been going up for years. The so-called oil crisis of the 1970's was more a technology crisis, i.e. the drilling technology hadn't been updated. These days oilmen can use (I'm no expert, so my terminology may be inexact) sonar to find underground pockets and with a good idea of how much oil there is down there. There are even instances of "empty" oil wells being returned to and found to be magically replenished. This, in turn, has caused some scholars to question the received view that oil is actually formed by the detritus of dead dinosaurs, plants and so on. Some (Thomas Gold is one name. Cornell U) have suggested that oil is some kind of product of the earth's core.

My basic point was that we needn't be forever left hanging over a barrel of mideast oil. You obviously concur.
28 posted on 03/26/2003 8:25:07 AM PST by bucephalus (Must Read Up On "Methane Hydrates")
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To: bucephalus
You're right about oil and there being more than we need...but...this is still kewl. Did you read about the enzyme batteries? This rang my bell because it's not all that different from how the body uses fuel. Why should the devil (enviro-nuts) get the credit for these potential energy alternatives ? What if we really could turn corn into air conditioning without too much fuss? Sounds easier, cheaper, and cleaner than that glop we buy from the Arabs.
29 posted on 03/26/2003 8:30:00 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: TomHarkinIsNotFromIowa
When I read the headline, I thought it was a parody of the upcoming Dem caucuses...
30 posted on 03/26/2003 8:43:36 AM PST by ken5050
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To: ken5050
I don't know. It's like our politico's here are afraid of causing a rukus at the old folks home. They might not get their pudding for desert.
31 posted on 03/26/2003 8:48:27 AM PST by TomHarkinIsNotFromIowa
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: bucephalus
The quicker we move beyond the oil paradigm and get into feasible alternative energy sources, the sooner the Saddamites and scabs of the House of Saud will be screwed.

Less than 5% on electricity in the US is generated with oil, and that is mostly crappy "bunker oil" that has no other use. The irony is to replace that 5% with wind energy, we would have to carpet Iowa with wind farms.

You saw the figures in the article. Even though they advertise this as a 310MW project (very small by utility standards), it's effective capacity is only 93MW and at a cost of over $324 Million! That $324 million could build a 1000 MW gas fired combined cycle plant that could run 24 x 7 x 365.

Follow the tax breaks!

33 posted on 03/26/2003 8:52:22 AM PST by Ditto (You are free to form your own opinions, but not your own facts.)
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To: biblewonk
Imagine, instead of farm subsidies the wind power produced on a particular farm might exceed the crop revenue. Farmers in Iowa would be reaping the rewards of their wind farms during the winter when the land is unusable till spring. Electrical COOPs would gather and distribute the energy.

Fund this project? Use excess Social Security funds to loan to indusry for these windmills. Then the utilities would pay off the bonds and a real cash flow would finance the Social Security fund. Imagine real dollars instead to Tax Bonds, (the way the Feds "borrow" the current SSI surplus for General Fund programs like PBS and all those other wasteful, unprofitable Govt programs), funding the Social security of our country. Every time you paid you electircal bill you would be improving your retirement since all Social Security recipients would be investing in their retirement.

Other wind usage. Desalinate Gulf Water to ship to water hungry Plains States.For every cubic mile of water desalinated there's plenty of dissolved minerals which can be feed stocks to industry. Bromine, chlorine and in every cubic mile of seawater there's a TON OF GOLD!

Yes there's need of oil for aircraft propulsion but everything can be electrical powered. It's a solution and America's ingenuity can change the world. The windmills will revive our aerospace industry, (those millions of blade set) and steel industry, (those towers) and high tech skilled jobs to manufacture the turbines themselves. and we'll export this technology around the world as growing economies in China, India and Africa look for cheap energy. Heck will even put a turbine on the Eiffel Tower to show the frogs how it's done!!!

34 posted on 03/26/2003 8:54:44 AM PST by Young Werther
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To: Ditto
Less than 5% on electricity in the US is generated with oil, and that is mostly crappy "bunker oil" that has no other use. The irony is to replace that 5% with wind energy, we would have to carpet Iowa with wind farms.

Why Iowa only? Each state has it's own wind resource. N Dakota could produce 20 times what it needs.

You saw the figures in the article. Even though they advertise this as a 310MW project (very small by utility standards), it's effective capacity is only 93MW and at a cost of over $324 Million! That $324 million could build a 1000 MW gas fired combined cycle plant that could run 24 x 7 x 365.

So. 93 MW of clean energy is good and the wind plants pay for themselves even without the subsidy. Nuke plants don't even have to insure themselves incase of an accident. You don't call that a subsidy? And where do you get your nuke plant pricing?

35 posted on 03/26/2003 9:00:50 AM PST by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: TomHarkinIsNotFromIowa
What do you expect from a state that elects both Harkin AND Grassley to the Senate. I'll never understand how that is possible...is the Iowa electorate schizophrenic? Can YOU explain it?
36 posted on 03/26/2003 9:14:10 AM PST by ken5050
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To: bucephalus
"I was thinking of hydrogen cells."

Hydrogen is just a storage medium. Making H2 requires energy input. Electrolysis, for example. You'd need a nuclear generator--for example--to convert water into LH2 and oxygen. The electrolyzer will be ~70% efficient.

Hydrogen cannot be a primary source of energy; it can only be a fancy storage battery.

Liquid hydrogen is a deep cryogen at about -420F. Its density is 11 times LESS than gasoline. Although it releases about 3.5x more energy per pound than gasoline, it releases 11/3.5 = 3.14 times LESS per gallon. A hydrogen-fuelled car would need a "gas tank" 3 times larger than a gasoline-fuelled one--assuming liquid hydrogen, which is probably not feasible [boil off, insulation, infrastructure]. Using hydrogen gas--even at 10,000 psia--is much worse on a volumetric basis.

--Boris

37 posted on 03/26/2003 9:14:16 AM PST by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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To: biblewonk
"No it couldn't."

Yes it could--if you could get rid of the 'intervenors', lawsuits, and multiple cycles of environmental impact statements.

38 posted on 03/26/2003 9:16:28 AM PST by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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To: biblewonk; Ditto; boris
And where do you get your nuke plant pricing?

Actually, Ditto was talking gas-fired plant, not a nuke.

It was boris who said they could build a 1 GW nuke for the price of this wind farm. I see his is fantasy-world pricing. ;-)

39 posted on 03/26/2003 9:17:54 AM PST by newgeezer
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To: Young Werther
"Scientific American Sept 1990 was titled "Energy for Planet Earth." The statistics for windmills were awesome. 13 years later it's only better. Build 2,000,000 windmills, (in 1990 which is now less because of generator improvements), from North Dakota to Texas, (the Plains States!) and you could generate ALL of the electrical needs for the US."

Sigh.

The economics will kill you. The reason is that wind is dilute. Intensity is the key to economies of scale. They (windmills) are simply a bad capital investment; you need to invest huge amounts for piddling amounts of power. A perfectly disinterested accountant would slay you for selecting wind over, say, nuclear. This is elementary economics.

--Boris

40 posted on 03/26/2003 9:18:53 AM PST by boris (Education is always painful; pain is always educational)
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