UK forces fight tank battle south of Basra

Reuters | 3/25/03 | Peter Graff

[archy]

You're right that the T-55 was not the Soviet frontline MBT after about 1968, when the T-62/4 and thereafter the T-72 took those honors. You're also right that Challenger 2s will eath them for lunch, but from the article, it didn't sound like Challengers were being used. Rather, it sounded like British light tanks (Scorpions?) were opposing the Iraqis. That would be a much more even fight, unfortunately.

As an M60A1 tank gunner stationed in Germany circa 1967-8 until my opportunity for an all-expense paid tour of the spas and resorts of exotic Southeast Asia came along just in time for me to attend the natives' quaint Tet '68 welcoming ceremony and fireworks, I can assure you that though the T62 and T64 were well known to us- I can tell you to this day the exact airing point for taking one out with a tank's main gun HEAT round- the T54/T55 was still the mainstay of the Soviet Bloc tank fleet, with over 50,000 in service, making it the most-produced tank of all time, even edging out the wartime T34 and M4 Sherman series. The Soviet doctrine of the time was that *quantity has a quality of its own... and there was at least some truth to that; we'd have had the defensive advantage of going to work with full fuel tanks, but having literally dozens of targets to clean up requires dozens of rounds of main gun ammo, and carry of more than about three dozen could be hazardous in the extreme. But having later crewed in a T55L myself, I can tell you that they're preferable to the T64, unless you're the driver and are under about 5'3" tall....

I expect the vehicles used against the Iraqi armour were a Squadron of the Regiment's 58 Challenger II main battle tanks, but the description of *light tanks* suggests a cavalry screening recce element of Warrior mechanised infantry combat vehicles, roughly the Brit equivalent of the M2/M3 Bradley Infantry vehicle got in those; a troop-carrier but one with a very accurate gun and a ATGM missile capability for anything too gun-resistant.

The Queens Dragoon Guards tank gunnery standards are quite high and their modernized armour has the full range of thermal viewing and laser rangefinding fire control for their 120mm L30 main gun, making a tank-versus-tank shootout between T55s and Challengers likely to resemble a turkey shoot.

And that's not at all the only mischief the 7th Brigade's *Desert Rats* have been up to lately. It seems they've been about nicking portraits of Saddam. Should look dandy in the Regimental Mess at Edinburgh Castle....

[CatoRenasci]

Thanks for your excellent post. Of course, you're right that the Russians built some 50,000 T-54/55s and that they kept all of their obsolescent tanks (and even obsolete JSIIIs and T-34/85s) in 2nd and 3rd line units, and ultimately in storage, long after they were taken out of the 'front line' divisions. Which was my point: by the late '60s, quantities of T-62/64 series tanks were being fielded and were replacing the earlier tanks in the elite Soviet Guards armored divisions, just as BMPs were replacing BTR-60s.

My active duty was a little later, in the '70s, but I spent a lot of time doing threat analysis, including wargamming where my role was soviet army and army group command. I spent a lot of time learning Soviet TOEs and doctrine. Interesting, but essentially useless today.

[archy]

My active duty was a little later, in the '70s, but I spent a lot of time doing threat analysis, including wargamming where my role was soviet army and army group command. I spent a lot of time learning Soviet TOEs and doctrine. Interesting, but essentially useless today.

Not at all useless, if we ever decide to start our own motor-rifle regiment. The equipment is available, and it's certainly priced reasonably enough....

More on the Scots Dragoon Guards and their Highland brethern from the Black Watch, serving together in the 7th *Desert Rats* Brigade, and also interestingly serving along a particularly appropriate American 5th Corps commander....

Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
Scots, wham Bruce has aften led;
Welcome to your gory bed,
Or to victorie.

Now's the day, and now's the hour;
See the front o' battle lour;
See approach proud Edward's power —
Chains and slaverie!

Wha will be a traitor-knave?
Wha can fill a coward's grave?
Wha sae base as be a slave?
Let him turn and flee!

Wha for Scotland's king and law
Freedom's sword will strongly draw,
Free-man stand, or Free-man fa',
Let him follow me!

By oppression's woes and pains!
By your sons in servile chains!
We will drain our dearest veins,
But they shall be free!

Lay the proud usurpers low!
Tyrants fall in every foe!
Liberty's in every blow!
Let us do, or die!

--Robert Burns

[CatoRenasci]

Not at all useless, if we ever decide to start our own motor-rifle regiment. The equipment is available, and it's certainly priced reasonably enough....

Now, there's an idea. Somehow, tho' I don't quite see my self as Col.Gen. Ivan Togohome leading my T-72s and BMPs in a mad dash through the Fulda Gap -- nukes popping to the left, Spesnatz to the right, VX gas everywhere was we roll in overpressure comfort(?) over duped, doped, dazed and demoralized German defenders. Then again, I think if we started in the Ardennes Forest and started West, we could roll up French and Beglian resistance in about a week..... hmmm. Where did I leave that set of manuals.....?

[archy]

Then again, I think if we started in the Ardennes Forest and started West, we could roll up French and Beglian resistance in about a week..... hmmm. Where did I leave that set of manuals.....?

Funny, I used to have nightmares about that sort of thing. But neither Bonn nor Berlin seems all that strategically desirable nowadays...maybe Munich around Oktoberfest time?

[Justa]

What good is tying up a Bde of armor when you can stop 2 divisions by disrupting their supply? They'll counterattack again, until they're defeated. That's their job. With the Shi'ites getting at them now things are probably getting a bit uncomfortable for them.

[RightWhale]

A-10

The order is to avoid collateral damage. A-10s would destroy the tanks, but the houses would also be whacked.

[CatoRenasci]

After we do Munich in the Fall, I intend to seize Burgundy, Champagne, Bordeaux, the Loire and Rhone valleys.

[archy]

After we do Munich in the Fall, I intend to seize Burgundy, Champagne, Bordeaux, the Loire and Rhone valleys.

Just so! You appear to have the French campaign well in hand; so I'll prepare for a desant operation on Belgium and begin by taking Axelle Red. Oh, and the prototype room at the Fabrique Nationale factory in Liege.