The new anti-Semitism

The Spectator ^ | 22 March 2003 | Melanie Philips

[wideawake]

So, in other words, you admit that your claims about Hitler not being excommunicated and about being on a Christian "mission" were deliberately told falsehoods which you cannot substantiate.

Apology accepted.

By the way, true study of God's Holy Word is based not upon the cutting-and-pasting of the eisegesis of others, but by careful and prayerful study of the Word itself - preferably in the original languages.

I highly recommend this approach.

[Askel5]

Many of my favorite posters hang out at LF. They follow the stories I like to follow and are able to post sources there that are not allowed here anymore.

Well now, that sort of says it all.

Not really. But I've no doubt that your and Dennisw's constant harping on the place (as if you yourselves spend a great deal of time there) only piques the curiosity of folks. For those interested in the sorts of "Pursuit of Liberty" symposium threads that used to take place here or the gamut of research-provoking disinfo once picked apart here in a quest for the truth of events as well as the desires of those shaping events, it can be an interesting read.

The sites are not so very different in substance and style where your primary subject of interest is concerned:

Hey Askel5: Israel isn't perfect.
Kill all the Jews! Happy now?

Go fuck thyself!!

This is exactly the sort of garbage which does take the shine off LF as well as Free Republic. It's just less one-sided over there, that's all.

And while I do not "filter" posts out of principle there, it's true that one has the option of being subjected to such mindless tripe thanks to the post rating system which -- though a subject of controversey itself -- alleviates both the waste of time that is repeated banning of disruptors and helps to keep the single identities of posters a constant. The fact that posters from both sides of the argument end up "below ground" suggests that there is some parity to the system.

Each place has its own good and bad qualities. I think you do this place a disservice, actually, by constantly inviting comparison to other sites and speaking as if a poster's participation elsewhere is somehow grounds to impugn their posts here.

Of late, I've spent most of my time at LF criticizing masturbation, asking atheists whether or not human nature is permanent, learning more about Japan's attempts to surrender in WWII and wondering why we did bomb Nagasaki and Dresden absent any particular strategic necessity. Additionally, I'm keeping tabs on the Balkans, Baku-Ceyhan, the "journalists as terrorists" Richard Perle saga and the actions of other possibly comprimised Interested Parties as well as Blood Trail stuff and the continuing use of sexual perversion as means of control by globalists.

I fail to see how any of that has any bearing on this thread and your "guilt by association" thoughtpolice tactics seem awfully idiotic and downright paranoid as a result.

I realize you may wish it did -- and in many respects, it does, does it not? -- but the world doesn't really revolve around Israel.

[Askel5]

It's exactly in the dumbing down of Christianity to include all manner of objectively non-Christian belief and practices that we have become something other than a Christian nation.

Really thought-provoking post, bvw. I'm going to give your "Jewish place" a little more consideration. Jerusalem's certainly a nexus, no doubt, recognized first by the Jews to whom God did give that and many other places as they annihilated their enemies and took the spoils, "killing all that breathed" ... all with the confidence that is knowing these acts were ordained by God.

Meta-Christian ... still bugs me somewhat given the fact that we are denying absolutely the peculiarly Christian discernment by which respect for life (particularly the weak), the institution of holy matrimony (which actually liberated women and children thanks to patriarchy) and the ability to objectively distinguish among other cultures (as good or bad) without losing respect for the individuals a part of that culture (each of whom was deserving of the genuine liberation that was the Word).

I think we've become an meta Anti-Christian nation in many respects. Our deconstruction of it in the name of "tolerance" and such being the far more deadly attack on it than the overt targeting of Christianity by the courts.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Personally, I think the State of Israel accomplishes this defamation more often than not when defending itself --and its more heinous actions -- as a "Jewish" state.

Once again, Israel is subjected to the criticisms of "true conservatives" while Rhodesia and South Africa were considered beyond reproach for doing the very same things (indeed, anyone who criticized them was a "commie").

You have obviously never read your Bible (at least the front part of it). Do you want to know what a truly Jewish state would do? I'll tell you.

It would expel the entire non-Jewish population and allow non-Jews to live there only if they were practicing Noachides and even then only during periods when the yovel ("jubilee") year was in effect.

It would destroy all non-Jewish places of worship just as they were to have destroyed the high places of pagan "gxds" in the Biblical era.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Biblically-mandated wars of annihilation against the Canaanites and `Amaleq, in which every man, woman, child, and even animal was to be put to the sword? Perhaps you are unaware that in the case of an `ir niddachat (a Jewish city that had strayed after idolatry) not only was it to be treated the same way but destroyed and never again rebuilt?

It is amazing how ignorant so many chr*stians are of "their own" Bible. Doubtless you find all this quite crude and horrific by chr*stianity's more liberal standards, but unless you are a religious liberal who believes the Bible is the work of men you're stuck with all this (even if you believe the rules changed two thousand years ago, which is hardly a conservative position).

[Askel5]

Very true but I don't often get get the chance since she doesn't post here as much as she used to.

It's no longer my job to "look busy" at some sinecure.

I've been taking care of family for a few months and do not have the time I used to.

I'm around, it's just that my posts reflect the same proportion of interest in all things Zionist as they always did and so have dropped off to nearly zero, as a result.

Perhaps this is one reason I've yet to be "recruited" by Stormfront at LF.

You never did answer my question ... have you any religious affiliation yourself?

[Askel5]

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Biblically-mandated wars of annihilation against the Canaanites and `Amaleq, in which every man, woman, child, and even animal was to be put to the sword? Perhaps you are unaware that in the case of an `ir niddachat (a Jewish city that had strayed after idolatry) not only was it to be treated the same way but destroyed and never again rebuilt?

Well, actually no. If you keep reading, you'll find I get to that eventually.

Thank you for your insights on the fact that Israel is not a strictly "Jewish" state. How would you describe it instead? "Democratized", or what?

Assuming the same realities where God's will is concerned yet apply to the Jews, I guess I don't understand what has changed.

I agree with you, actually, that we should employ more consistency in both our criticism and support of other nations. I never understood why -- despite the bodies floating down bloody rivers like logs -- Rwanda was dismissed as some "internal conflict into which we cannot intervene" while the alleged genocide in Serbia mandated military intervention.

If it's any consolation, perhaps Israel receive more than its share of scrutiny and criticism in direct proportion to its receiving more than its share of aid and diplomatic concessions. One must admit there is no real parity on that score either, regardless whether or not one supports our special relationship with the State of Israel.

[veronica]

I realize you may wish it did -- and in many respects, it does, does it not? -- but the world doesn't really revolve around Israel.

Really? One would never know that looking at LF, where Israel and Jews are all that is "debated". So what do you like best about that sinkhole? The Jewhating, the America hating, the bashing of FR, or the Holocaust denial?

[wideawake]

What is LF?

[William Terrell]

If it's any consolation, perhaps Israel receive more than its share of scrutiny and criticism in direct proportion to its receiving more than its share of aid and diplomatic concessions.

Reality-based statement, Number 5. It's an ancient and obvious maxim that if I pay your rent, I have a right to scrutinize your job hunting efforts. Completely overrides the notion that to criticize Israel is to be presumed to hate Jews.

[MEGoody]

"Europe's Jews being run out of Europe and into Palestine."

Okay, give me the history of the country of Palestine. Who were it's Presidents/Kings or whatever? When was it established as a nation? What form of government did it have? What was its currency.

Oh, there was no nation of Palestine?

Just as I thought.

[veronica]

The fact that Israel receives US aid does not give anyone the right to parade their Jewhating around under the guise of "anti-Zionism" or whatever euphemism the Jewhater cares to use. The right to criticize any country is a given, but 95% of the criticism the "world community" hurls at Israel is based on anti-semitism, and there is a double-standard employed by and buckets of hypocrisy among, Israel's "critics."

[Askel5]

One would never know that looking at LF, where Israel and Jews are all that is "debated". So what do you like best about that sinkhole? The Jewhating, the America hating, the bashing of FR, or the Holocaust denial?

Good grief, Veronica. Try not to tip your hand in the process of trying to smear LF only to reveal yourself as the wholly subjective, single-issue and purposed agit-prop artist you are.

Anyone with the least objectivity who canvases the site (starting with the Editor's Choice column, the increasingly wide network of partnerships confected with other libertarian endeavors as well as the Owner's own posts with regard to the mission and purpose of the place and the criteria with which he intends Moderators and Raters deploy the FAME system) understands perfectly well that the wholly distasteful and substanceless work of the more strident provocateurs on the Israel/Jew threads is but a wad of fetid gum stuck to the Free Speech shoe at LF.

Even a cursory look at the posting habits of the Usual Suspects reveals them to be single-issue sorts like yourself whose sole mission in life is to perpetuate the rancor and spam latest posts with bs posts in the hopes IT WILL APPEAR that the Israel thing indeed overshadows the actual purpose of the site.

All one need do is set their threshold to "1" in order to dispel the utterly ludicrous notion that LF is a "hate site" centered on or even unduly preoccupied with questions about Israel or the Jews sufficient to characterize it as some Stormfront hate site.

It's to be expected from any political discussion board that the subject of our international relations with Israel or internal relations with Jewish organizations bent on curtailing the free speech or exercise of religion by others come up. After all, our relations with Israel are a CRITICAL aspect of our foreign policy and certainly a crippling factor in our relations with Arab nations and any religious organization -- the Catholic Church, for example -- which seeks to influence our rule of law or the spin our courts and President put on notions of "Free Speech" or "Respect for Life" is subject to criticism.

Broadbrushing any and all critical discussion of those relationships as "anti-semitic" is not only disingenuous but reeks of the deceipt essential for instilling suspicions, cutting out tongues and prosecuting Thought Crimes.

Bottom line ... I still fail to see how it is that your opinions of some other website are pertinent to the discussion at hand. If you wish to continue in this vein, why not open a thread on Liberty Forum in the backroom where you could perhaps evidence your more subjective impressions.

[Askel5]

The right to criticize any country is a given, but 95% of the criticism the "world community" hurls at Israel is based on anti-semitism, and there is a double-standard employed by and buckets of hypocrisy among, Israel's "critics."

95%, eh?

On what factual basis do you come up with that number?

Just once I'd like to see you spend more of your time addressing the substance of honest criticisms and questions rather than seeking to shut down all debate with your bogus and strictly dramatic smears and subjective personal opinions.

[Askel5]

It's an ancient and obvious maxim that if I pay your rent, I have a right to scrutinize your job hunting efforts.

Nice way to put it ... particularly when this is precisely how the United States treats the wards of its own welfare state at home.

[Francisco]

As a Catholic familiar with the "more Catholic than the Pope concept" ... sometimes I wonder that the State of Israel doesn't consider itself somehow "more Jewish than the Practicing Jews".

Askel's attempt at a sleight of hand.

According to Askel, a practicing member of the Catholic Church questioning the orthodoxy of the head of the Catholic Church, is as outrageous as the head of the State of Israel questioning the orthodoxy of a member of the State of Israel! While at the same time granting that it's theoretically possible for the head of the State of Israel to be an enemy to Practicing Jews!!!!

Askel, I can certainly understand you being quite busy with life's responsibilities. Therefore I will plead that you answer the following question with one word.

In keeping with the strictest Catholic theology, is it theoretically possible for a member of the Catholic Church to be more Catholic than the Pope?

Yes or No?

[William Terrell]

The right to criticize any country is a given, but 95% of the criticism the "world community" hurls at Israel is based on anti-semitism, and there is a double-standard employed by and buckets of hypocrisy among, Israel's "critics."

I recognize there are people in the world that hate Jews, particularly in the Middle East, and possibly that percentage can be applied to criticism coming from that quarter. But it seems to me that Jews expect a badmouth from that source, having heard it for centuries and consider that it goes without saying.

Criticism from other places doesn't enjoy the historical hatred traded with middle eastern venues, and much of it can be said to be sincere criticism for actions, choices, and behavior, especially from America who belies this presumed entrenched and ubiquitous "anti-semetic" character by financially supporting Israel with billions of dollars a year.

The "95%" is a little high there, don't you think, considering that the Americans who do the criticising are aware of the recipient of those billions?

[William Terrell]

But, unfortunately, Ameician domestic policy and foreign policy seems to be run by Jeckle and Hyde.

[veronica]

Blah blah blah. It's quite obvious to anyone who takes a look at my posts at FR, that I am not a "single-issue" poster, just as it is quite obvious what LF is all about, by just taking a cursory glance at the posts over there.

At any rate, these days my thoughts are with the US forces, my prayers are with President Bush, and I bless my country, and the brave soldiers fighting to liberate Iraq, and rid this planet of the curse of Islamofascism and the likes of tyrants such as Saddam.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

...the post rating system which -- though a subject of controversey itself -- alleviates both the waste of time that is repeated banning of disruptors and helps to keep the single identities of posters a constant. The fact that posters from both sides of the argument end up "below ground" suggests that there is some parity to the system.

I don't think that the post rating system at Liberty Forum has any merit whatsoever. I've seen pro-Israel posts downrated to a -1, while anti-Israel posts are uprated to a 2. Even non-comments or pings get rated as a 2. Something is seriously wrong over there. I prefer Liberty Post.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

LF = Liberty Forum Liberty Forum

LP = Liberty Post is better Liberty Post