Posted on 03/13/2003 5:14:33 AM PST by Doctor13
Edited on 07/12/2004 4:01:28 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
Michael Dobbs' estimate is 1,600 civilian and 1,000 military casualties according to the Washington Post on July 11, 1999. NATO and the Clinton administration routinely used hyperbole and preposterous numbers in total disregard for the truth.
May I suggest to my fellow contributors who want the truth to be known, that your responses to HopSing, or whatever his name is (or was he the guy on Bonanza?) that you not respond? It is apparent from other postings that he is on the websites strictly to be provocative.
But then, that's just my opinion.
LOL. Thanks for that one!
Part 1.
March 30, James Rubin (US State Department spokesman) suggests Serbs are herding Albanians into Pristina stadium.
TRANSCRIPT OF THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT
March 30 (James Rubin):
QUESTION: You said that the secretary had talked to Thaqi the day before. Has she talked to him again?
RUBIN: No. He called into the department today, and he provided another chilling account of what's going on in Kosovo. He basically indicated that the situation is worse today than it was yesterday.
QUESTION: Could you elaborate on that? Why it is worse? How it is worse?
RUBIN: He said that the killing is more widespread, that they're shelling the whole series of towns, that the Kosovar Liberation Army is doing the best it can under the circumstances, but that it's becoming increasingly difficult.
He indicated that people were being held in the soccer stadium in Pristina, that people were being held in two other locations, that several thousand people who had been evacuated from a particular town, whose name I don't have in front of me, are missing. And a number of other reports of that nature.
END OF QUOTE
2.
March 31: Reporter (AFP) visits stadium -- nobody there.
Copyright 1999 Agence France Presse
Agence France Presse March 31, 1999 Kosovo-stadium 16:04 GMT
HEADLINE: No sign of Serbs massing Kosovars in Pristina stadium DATELINE: PRISTINA, Yugoslavia, March 3<
A football stadium in the Kosovo capital Pristina stood empty Wednesday, one day after reports that Serbian forces were herding ethnic Albanians there in an apparent prelude to a massacre. An AFP reporter who visited the site said the stadium, whose galleries can host some 25,000 spectators, was completely empty and there were no signs of any mass groupings.
On Tuesday, Hashim Thaci, one of the commanders of the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) told German TV ZD that 100,000 people were massed by the Serbian forces in the Pristina stadium.
But on Wednesday, rows of seats stood empty and the grass looked intact, an AFP reporter who managed to enter the stadium through a non-guarded entrance said.
The windows at the stadium offices were smashed in NATO air strikes overnight Sunday, when a nearby Serbian police headquarters was shelled.
A worker cleaning the broken glass said that "no one has entered the stadium for a long time, since there is not much to see there." Also on Wednesday, a spokesman for the Democratic League of Kosovo (LDK), Kosovo's largest moderate political party, said Serb forces have herded 3,000 residents of the Kosovo town of Pec into another stadium. Entire families have been rounded up since late Tuesday by Serbian paramilitary forces and the police, the spokesman said. str-md/an/po LOAD-DATE: March 31, 1999
PART 3.
We never said there was . . .
March 31. James (Jamie) Rubin:
Q: Jamie, on that -- and I don't mean to suggest that you're not getting correct information, but we've gotten a report this morning which is what I believe is the first independent report out of Pristina in some days, saying that Thaqi's claim yesterday that a hundred thousand people were massed in the Pristina stadium --
MR. RUBIN: I didn't make that claim -- we didn't make that claim.
Q: Well, it's been referred to. But anyway -- anyway, this report says that this --
MR. RUBIN: I never heard him say that.
Q: He said it yesterday on German radio --
MR. RUBIN: He hasn't said it to us -- a hundred thousand people in the stadium.
Q Yeah, in the Pristina stadium.
Anyway, given the fact that he said this, maybe not to you, but he has said this, and the fact of the matter is is that the reporter that went there this morning and said it was empty and there was no signs of anyone in any large numbers at all had been there for the past couple of days at all, that the grass was intact and undisturbed and it is was just deserted, how confident are you in the reports that you are getting from him and others? And how comfortable are you repeating them to us in this forum?
MR. RUBIN: We believe that the basic information about the situation in Malisevo is accurate. We have our own independent corroboration that there is massive burning of houses. And Mr. Thaqi has been quite clear with us that he is hearing reports -- he is not saying that these things are facts -- and I am sure an enterprising reporter can debunk any report, if you wait long enough. But I think the reality is that reporters who are on the ground in Kosovo, and reporters on the ground in Albania, have tended to corroborate the vast majority of the information the KLA has provided about the atrocities being conducted. In fact, the reporting that I have seen from Albania and Macedonia, from direct interviews with refugees, has tended to corroborate most of the information that we have received. I have no reason to dispute the particular reporter's information about a soccer stadium. But let me say this. Our own information is rather dramatic about this whole situation here. U.S. government information is that, prior to forced expulsion, Serbs have looted the homes and businesses of ethnic Albanians in at least 20 towns and villages. In addition, Serb soldiers have reportedly occupied Albanian homes in Pristina. The refugees report widespread burning of homes in 13 towns and countless villages throughout Kosovo.
More stories about the lies here:
Curious book marks you have there, Hoplite for someone who has no dog in this fight every book mark of yours is about Kosovo...
Are you saying the AKs are a bunch of barbarians? That's basically an unwarranted insult to guys like Attila the Hun, Genseric the Vandal, Ragnar Lothbrok.....
Our favorite HumWarrior is still clutching at ethereal straws...
VRN
By the way, the vast majority of bodies (both civilian and KLA) killed in Kosovo were killed after NATO intervention started. So unless you think NATO has a crystal ball and can see into the future, you're position that NATO's bombing was justified is not defendable.
Also do some research on the number of KLA deaths. They are in the thousands, and I really doubt the KLA had time to bury their losses in proper graves while they were busy fighting.
This brings us to the sad spectacle of individuals attempting to diminish the bodycount in Kosovo - the Serbs, and it is damning to point out that the man being sought for the assassination of Serbia's Prime Minister was an integral part in this operation, removed their Albanian victims and played 'hide the bodies' just so idiocy like we're seeing on this thread could take place. That I'm seeing bodycounts that attempt to understate by excluding the most recent information only supports the thesis that the latest, most accurate information isn't in some people's interest. Surprise, surprise.
If you wish to reacquaint yourself with factual analysis of what Milosevic's forces did in Kosovo, the American Association for the Advancement of Science has a webpage devoted to the subject. I figure a well read individual such as yourself is already (ahem) familiar with the material so I include it here for those still relying upon out of date Serbian propaganda - enjoy.
Now, back to propaganda - here's another nit to pick: You are attempting to rearrange the facts concerning Milosevic's stance on Kosovo prior to the bombing:
And despite claims to the contrary, Milosevic was willing to accept peacekeepers, which would have prevented that violence.
Milosevic went to war to avoid having peacekeepers - real peacekeepers, armed with weapons, rather than the unarmed OSCE observers his forces could push around and exclude from such places as Racak when his thugs were murdering random Albanians - Milosevic chose sovereignity and the total exclusion of NATO peacekeepers and instead lost sovereignity and got twice the number of NATO peacekeepers while seeing his forces totally excluded from Kosovo.
Yeah, that's a claim to the contrary all right, but when it's you who's position is contrary to the facts, what can you expect?
Serbian Prime Minister also rejected categorically any possibility of the foreign troops deployment on the territory of Kosovo and Metohija. - Mirko Marjanovic, 3/16/03
We would obstruct to a deployment of any foreign soldier on the territory of our country. Our army is ready to support the state ledership in resolving the Kosmet crises. We do not need other soldiers and we would obstruct to their coming at any price - Third Army Commander Nebojsa Pavkovic, 3/17/99
In a great public rally named "For Serbia", which was held in Bajina Basta, Lilic added that we would not allow NATO to enter Kosovo and that we had the means and reasons to fight for Kosovo and Metohija, which we would defend regardless of the serious threats. Serbian Deputy Premier Zoran Lilic 3/21/99
Milutinovic went on to say that the position of the Serbian delegation and Serbia's people about the presence of peacekeeping forces in the process of the implementation of the accord was well known. That's the Serbian President, Milan Milutinovic, on 3/17/99 - I guess that particular position just isn't too well remembered, eh dirt?
Here, just so we're crystal clear on the matter, here's Milutinovic again, from 3/23/99
The issue was not at all the agreement but the troops, only the troops and nothing but the troops. We had very interesting offers. If you accept the troops you would get a good agreement as well. Even now, when we signed this document of ours, based essentially on the contact group's text but cleaned of all what would jeopardize directly sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia and FR Yugoslavia, they said that our agreement was basically good but we should accept the troops after all. Of course, if you carefully read paragraphs 2, 5 and 7 you'll understand what would those troops mean.
It would mean the absence of the Yugoslav Army and the police forces on Kosmet. It would mean that we would have a renewed verification mission on Kosovo. Walker would be ''a small baby'' comparing to this renewed verification mission. We would have a new dictator to rule in Kosovo. We would have 28 000 armed soldiers and it wouldn't matter what agreement we have signed. They would rule over Kosovo and there would simply be no Serbia on Kosovo.
There's your causus belli, dirt, and playing "The Mother of all Battles" word games and declaring victory for Slobo because NATO was excluded from Serbia proper when we never had any intention of occupying it just isn't a wise thing to do - don't even go there.
As to terrorism carried out by a government upon it's own territory via ethnic cleansing in Kosovo vs. international terrorism as practiced by Al Quaeda, they're both terrorism. It applies to KLA, Bosniak, and Croatian practitioners of the murder-for-monetary-or-political-gain set as well, but if you're going to go by bodycount, Milosevic is king of the hill.
Let's just agree upon the premise that our intervention in Kosovo made things much more miserable for you and avoid the quantifiable comparisons which you'll lose, shall we? Or do you really want to delve into the KLA's influence and the number of lives they've ruined vs. Serbia's criminal infrastructure and the number of lives it has ruined?
And by the way, NATO was going to bomb Milosevic back in October of 1998, but he promised to behave.
He didn't and he got bombed, and NATO's intervention was keyed upon events at the time, namely the Serb military offensive in Kosovo at the end of March which conclusively abrogated the October agreement, not the deaths and ethnic cleansing which merely put the icing on the cake, justification-wise.
Also, do some research yourself - the locations of the exhumations were tied to reports of murders of civilians, and excluded the KLA's military casualties.
Did you manage to avoid news reports from the Balkans throughout the entire 1990's? They're the reason the Serbian PAC in America couldn't accomplish a damn thing - the boys back home with their predilection for atrocities kept making their position untenable in public.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.