Posted on 03/13/2003 5:14:33 AM PST by Doctor13
Edited on 07/12/2004 4:01:28 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
You haven't demonstrated squat, jack. I followed this one quite closely, and got my information from a variety of sources. I didn't have a dog in this hunt, just called it as I see it. You, however, clearly have your own biases, and your claims should be judged accordingly.
Get a clue already - it was all "Everything's gonna change once Clinton's gone" wasn't it?
I never said such, but it's your stock in trade to put words in other people's mouths.
But as far as our Balkan policy, nothing's really changed, has it?
Like I said, our intervention made matters worse, not better. So a low-grade conflict became a mass humanitarian problem, and now we're (or at least some kind of peacekeeping force) are stuck there for the foreseeable future. It's a lot easier to jump into a swamp then to climb out of it. Oh, and BTW, Bush HAS floated from time to time the idea of getting US troops out of the Balkans and turning the mess over to the Europeans, so things are at least a bit different than under Clinton.
The truth is not a bias, dirtboy, but it's damning to your position, so dislike it all you want.
If you want to talk specifics and be liable to being called on the carpet as to the lack of materials supportive of your position, just give the word.
I've done this before too, you see, and there are fewer refugees in the Balkans now than when Slobo was having his way - so like I said, pragmatism is a bitch.
You sure are arrogant. I did quite a bit of very rigorous research, and was way ahead of the curve back in 1999. There wasn't mass genocide, it was a two-way conflict with provocations by the Albanians, Milosevic was willing to have peacekeepers but not Nato ones, nor was he willing to accept de facto occupation of FRY by Nato. Intelligence said that withdrawing observers would make matters much worse, which it did. We bombed Serbia for nearly two months to in the end accept what Milosevic was willing to do all along, and then had our peackeepers watch as the Albanians drove the Serbs out of Kosovo. Yeah, there are fewer refugees now - because the Serbs are gone to Serbia, and you somehow consider that to be justice. Meanwhile, Kosovo has transformed under Albanian rule into a major center for organized crime. Hope you're happy.
Those are the facts. You can chip away at them all you want with the blunt instrument of Nato and KLA propaganda.
Ok, so impress me - come up with the original quote in regards to the 100,000 which you referenced.
Been here, done this, and it ain't gonna be pretty.
Who should I start with? Jamie Rubin? Expressed "grave concern" about the fate of 100,000 men, also referring to them as "unaccounted for," and adding: "Based on past practice, it is chilling to think where those 100,000 men are. We don't know ..."
U.S. Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes, David Scheffer, on April 19 - "We have upwards of 100,000 men that we cannot account for" and "we have no idea where they are now."
U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen - claimed on a talking head show on May 16 that 100,000 Kosovar males had been murdered: "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing. They may have been murdered."
Next.
Never. But he claims he doesn't have a dog in that hunt.
Well if you haven't posted against it, you must support it, right?
Get lost.
Its fun to mention Kosovo & watch 'em sputter.
Which doesn't explain why so many of the same people are "all busted up" over the hypothetical future bombing of Iraq - which will bring about an end to Hussein's depredations in Iraq.
But when you choose to ignore all of Milosevic's crimes, as Stella has made a career of doing, I suppose there is bound to be some confusion on the issue.
Issues always get confused when someone chooses to ignore facts. And that's why the current "anti-war" faction appears so confused.
A fine strawman, Hoplite. Considering how much you have posted on the Kosovo issue, it is HIGHLY relevant to ask this question - and the fact that you choose to answer with a non-sequiter shows just how false your claim is that you don't have a dog in this hunt.
Who made the original 100,000 statement?
What was the actual quote?
Get to it or admit you're just running off at the mouth.
Disregard my last and wait 10.
Hoplite, I just provided THREE examples of Administration officials using the 100,000 number to justify intervention. Now you demand that I actually prove I researched this four years ago as well? You're truly an ass, and I won't waste any more time with you.
You mean the 100,000 Albanians killed by the Serbs, a figure bandied about to justify intervention?
You have removed the word "may" from the quotes in order to support your position - that's a no-no, dirtboy.
The dead may have been 100,000, but they turned out to only number ~10,000.
Remember the WTC? We origninally thought upwards of 10,000 were dead - we didn't know nor have any way of finding out the real numbers until we could properly investigate.
Does the fact that the numbers were actually lower than our worst fears invalidate our response?
Hell no. And the same holds true for Milosevic and Kosovo.
My bad, but you're still wrong.
Nitpicking is your stock in trade, Hoplite. When the Secretary of Defense goes on a Sunday talking head show and says that 100,000 MAY have been murdered, that's propaganda. So you quibble over one word that I forgot to put in four years after it happened while you disregard the big picture - that the Administration was tossing about grossly inflated numbers to bolster its case for intervention. Telling. Very telling.
Does the fact that the numbers were actually lower than our worst fears invalidate our response?
You have a lot of nerve comparing the WTC, a terrorist attack on this country, to Kosovo. Kosovo was a TWO-SIDED conflict with atrocities on both sides. We took one side in a civil war and made matters much worse than if we had accepted Milosevic's agreement to allow UN peacekeepers into Kosovo.
Run along, now that it's springtime, I'm sure there are some ants outside that you can fry with a magnifying glass...
Hoppie, if you want to become propagandist, you have to learn from the masters. You had 4 years to learn this one, yet you failed to do so.
Mr. William Cohen, May 16 1999, "Face the Nation":
"FRIEDMAN: Yet, Mr. Secretary, it hasn't stopped him from evicting a million and a half Kosovars.
COHEN: That's true. He has the so-called MUP forces or police on the ground. He has over 40,000 inside Kosovo. And we knew from the very beginning that he had that capability and he had the intent to displace these peoples. As a matter of fact, he has put about a million and a half people out of their homes, and we are now seeing about 100,000 military-age men missing. We have seen 500 --
FRIEDMAN: Do you think there could be 100,000 people either missing or having been murdered, as many? COHEN: I think that they are missing. They may have been murdered. We have had reports that as many as 4,600 have been executed. But I suspect it's far higher than that."
"But I'd also point out, for the Serbs to lament publicly about the deaths of these refugees is almost tantamount to Adolf Eichmann complaining about Allied forces bombing the crematoriums."
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