AF Academy Cadet: Assault deemed 'my fault' - general brushed off rape case

Denver Post ^ | March 9, 2003 | Miles Moffeit & Amy Herdy

[happygrl]

Gen. S. Taco Gilbert? S stands for soft, I guess??

Heh, heh, I missed that!!!

Well, he wasn't a softie on this issue.

[happygrl]

y'all couldn't leave the house without a chastity belt, a burqua and a stun gun.

Hmmm....

Note to self.....

[Rifleman]

And such urges are as normal to men as coquettery and teasing are to women. It is important to healthy relations between the sexes that we all understand that.


:-)

[GovernmentShrinker]

instead of gutting out a bad situation at the Academy, she quit

Where do you get that? The article says she's graduating this summer.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Sounds at least as American as Gen. S. "Taco" Gilbert.

[archy]

Sounds at least as American as Gen S. "Taco" Gilbert.

Concur.

[GovernmentShrinker]

My first thought was "What WERE his parents thinking of?!" But then I saw he's the THIRD! Some names are worth carrying on generation after generation, but this one should probably have been left in the family history book.

[archy]

Ladies, KNOW THIS. Most healthy young men want every attractive woman that they see. And only a tiny percentage of us have less than perfect control of our urges. We control ourselves because animals act that way, men do not. If this were not the case, y'all couldn't leave the house without a chastity belt, a burqua and a stun gun. And this control is only a little harder for us old men.

That presumes, of course, that those controlling themselves are in a subculture where such things are at least discouraged, rather than covered up or tacitly accepted, or even promoted as a *stressbuster.*

One female USAF avionics tech of my acquaintence went on an implanted 5-year birth control program, as she was expecting to be raped at least once during her career. And on her exit interview with her commanding officer, she filled him in on the probability that one of his maintenance supervisors was the intended victim of a murder plot by at least three of the USAF women he'd previously raped, giving the Colonel a choice of transferring the idiot or seeing his own career dragged down the tubes with the rapist. Pity he hadn't been more aware of what was going on in his own unit, but those women had no faith in him as their commanding officer.

When asked to snitch on the plotters, my galpal refused, but offered the suggestion that all they'd have to do was question the ones the guy had raped. After all, there were only about a dozen of them....

-archy-/-

[CobaltBlue]

I keep hearing people say "oh, she said no, but she really meant yes." Incomprehensible to me. When I say no, I mean no.

Not that I've ever been raped. I think a man would have to half near kill me before that happened, or else I'd try to kill him.

One man (total stranger) did try and the neighbors heard the screams a block away.

I grabbed the knife out of his hand and tried to kill him with it, and chased him out of the house.

I don't play games about stuff like that.

[Mr Rogers]

Questions - did she scream? Were there signs of a fight in the bathroom? Did she claw his face?

A woman who submits without a struggle or a scream in a house full of people would have a hard time proving squat-all in court. IMHO.

[snowstorm12]

It is very ridiculous to get yourself into a vulnerable situation like this female did. Her biggest mistake was going into a secluded room with a stranger. If she wanted to make out and grope, people do this in public areas like couches of a parties and clubs all the time. She should've stayed on a couch in full view of other party goers if that is all she wanted to do.

Both parties were obviously negligent. The man because he should've known that this was a high risk situation for being branded the rest of your life with a rape charge (whether it's legit or he gets acquited or not, people will always wonder). He should've said to himself, "Theres a strange woman who've i've never met who is clearly drunk, she could be a nut, she isn't exactly enthusiastic about going further, and it's taking a lot of convincing to engage in sex with me....is this experience worth it and do I trust this person?" The woman too because the situation was high risk for rape. This is what women should ask themselves before they go to some party and get intoxicated. "Do I trust all the people at this party and will I be safe with them or have people looking out for me if I get drunk and there's trouble? Do any of these people have crimal minds or more importantly criminal records? More importatly is the person I'm going into a secluded room with have a criminal mind or record?" If she got dragged into the room because of a drug that's a different story, but she admits that isn't the case.

[colorado tanker]

You are correct. I was thinking of the other women who came forward to be interviewed, who did leave. My bad.

[Mark17]

but the deal is, if she says no or even if she says yes and changes her mind... we've got to stop.

I wonder if one of them has ever said no after he, well, you know, finished the deed?

[SauronOfMordor]

I keep hearing people say "oh, she said no, but she really meant yes." Incomprehensible to me. When I say no, I mean no.

Good! I'm glad there are some women out there who are unambiguous about their "No"s (and presumably their "Yes"s as well)

What my point was, is that there are a percentage of women who ARE a bit ambiguous about whether they're saying "No" as in "Not yet, you need to work on getting me in the mood more" versus "Hell no, get out of my face before I cut a piece of you off!". I've encountered them. Friends of mine have told me of cases where they took "No" for an answer and later the woman would be all offended when they responded with "Oh. OK. Good night". It can drive guys NUTS (and frequently does).

[Mark17]

It can drive guys NUTS (and frequently does).

LOL, and people wonder why I went OCS for a woman.

[OperationFreedom]

And SHE encouraged the crime until the last minute!!!

[Maximum Leader]

Hmmm, that would be an interesting case. The law is clear, If a couple is doing the deed, if she says no, he has to to stop.

As a practical matter, it's hard to see the police or the DA taking a complaint like that seriously ("so what happened ma'am, did he accidently scream the wrong name?"). The only time I've heard of a guy being charged is when he forceably kept her down and he kept at it.


The situation you described, she changed her mind after he was done and presumably gone to sleep is what makes date rape charges so vexing. Because its a crime that depends on the intent of both parties, rape is both the most underreported crime(real victims don't come forward) and overreported crime (fake victims that have changed their mind after the fact or just want revenge).

Because so many victimized women don't come forward, every case should be handled very seriously, the police are pretty good at shaking out the fake crimes from the real ones.
In the Air Force case, maybe it wasn't a rape after all-- we don't know all the facts-- but that's what a police investigation is for. Sweeping the whole matter under the rug like the AF Academy did is criminal.

[TheDon]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

[ijcr]

Was it the same perpertrator? If yes then the cadets did not deserve to be attacked.
However, when insufficient evidence results in a he said-she said case then circumstantial evidence plays a significant role.

I suppose you still believe Tawana Brawley?

You just cannot leap to conclusions without the facts.

I have recently concluded a case where a young girl
accused her own step-father of rape. She lied to the police and in her taped deposition. After a serious investigation
it transpired that she was sexually active with a former boyfriend and out of fear of her mothers wrath, she had accused her step father.The lies built up until they became an avalanche.

Because of her lies an innocent man was in jail for almost six months, lost his job, lost his friends...and this is not the only case where a similar MO was employed.

The same applies to restraining orders,women lie.It is dangerous to accept your concept on group behaviour, each case must be investigated and a judgement made on the merits of the evidence.

Here you must remember that the preponderance of the evidence for a criminal charge is "Beyond reasonable doubt". As soon as a case becomes he said- she said
it is hard to form a prosecution.