Basics of Flashover (Warwick fire related)

Self ^ | 2/22/2003 | Stephen Cook

[Richard Kimball]

I was not an investigator of this fire, and have not been to the fire scene. This article is intended only to explain how the phenomena of flashover contributed to the rapid fire spread at the Warwick nightclub fire. Also, I know there are some other fire fighters freeping. If you see any errors in my explanation, please post.

[Richard Kimball]

Fatima. Since you have a lot of fire fighters in your family, if you wouldn't mind, have some of them give a check to this post and see if they can think of anything to add.

Also, I did the original in Word, & when I cut and pasted, it converted my apostrophe's to question marks. Sorry about that.

[mykdsmom]

This fire has been haunting me all day, not sure why, other than it's SO horrific.

I saw this table, posted below in our local paper and it looks like about 50/50 if they asked or didn't for permission for pyro. Wonder if they started getting told no to pyro from club owners too often that they decided it was better to ask forgiveness rather than permission. They may have felt that doing the concert w/o pyro ruined the "look" they were trying to create.

Sampling of shows from tour

JAN. 23, GLENDALE HEIGHTS, ILL.: Great White manager mentioned pyrotechnics. Shark City manager said club did not allow them, and effects were not used.

JAN. 25, HEWITT, MINN.: Band used "flashpots" at the Checkers Bar. Club booker Brian Hendershot said club was informed in advance.

JAN. 27, SIOUX CITY, IOWA: Band used pyrotechnics. Dan Lewis, owner of Lewis Bowl & Sports Bar, could not recall whether band sought permission.

JAN. 30, MILWAUKEE: Band apparently used pyrotechnics, though the Rave club did not have a permit for the effects, said Todd Weiler, spokesman for the Milwaukee Department of Neighborhood Services.

FEB. 3, EVANSVILLE, IND.: Band complied with request not to use pyrotechnics at Oxygen, owner said.

FEB. 7, PINELLAS PARK, FLA.: Band used pyrotechnics without notification at the Pinellas Park Expo Center, said Tim Bryant, president of Past to Present Productions.

FEB. 8, BOYNTON BEACH, FLA.: Band complied with request not to use pyrotechnics at Ovation, owner said.

FEB. 10, ATLANTA: Band did not use pyrotechnics at The Riviera Club, club production manager said.

FEB. 11, WINSTON-SALEM, NC: Officials at Ziggy's Tavern told fire marshal band did not use pyrotechnics.

FEB. 13, ALLENTOWN, PA.: Band used pyrotechnics at the Crocodile Rock Cafe without notice, owner Joe Clark said.

FEB. 14, ASBURY PARK, N.J.: Band used pyrotechnics at the Stone Pony without telling club officials, owner Domenic Santana said.

FEB. 18, BANGOR, MAINE: Authorities investigating reports pyrotechnics used without a permit.

MKM

[hole_n_one]

The first pic is missing from your post.

This was what the fireworks were supposed to look like

[You Gotta Be Kidding Me]

My prediction of the legal outcome of criminal and/or civil cases:

The courts will find that:

1) The band did not have permission to use pyrotechnics and that was the source of ignition.

2) The ceiling foam material was not rated for interior installation and should never have been installed in the building.

The bottom line will be that the band and the nightclub owners were all at fault.

[Richard Kimball]

Pinged as requested. Hope this helps explain things a little. BTW, please don't think I'm trying to set myself up as some kind of guru on this stuff. Any fire fighter could give you the same information I have. It's all Firefighting 101 stuff.

[You Gotta Be Kidding Me]

You're not Dr. Richard Kimball are you?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. "Dr. Richard Kimball" was the name of the character that Harrison Ford played in "The Fugitive".

[RLJVet]

Thank you for this information. Haunting indeed. Information is my outlet. Maybe you can answer a little bit why people are milling around in the parking lot while people are stuck in the doorway being helped by a helpless few. I understand how quickly it went up, that people are in shock, there are drugs and booze involved and that the building is hot. It seems weird still, and haunting. Thanks.

[Richard Kimball]

From reading your post, it looks like the band could be pretty well hung out on the question of "did the club give permission" question. Even if the club did give permission, they're saying they didn't, and the band has a track record of sneaking things in.

[NYC GOP Chick]

Thanks for the info -- however basic it may be, it's a hell of a lot more than I knew. Much appreciated.

[RLJVet]

What I mean by my question to you is, is this some sort of typical or common reaction?

[hatfieldmccoy]

Thanks for the explanation. I was puzzled how the fire spread so fast that it killed so many people in such a short time.

[You Gotta Be Kidding Me]

From the description of how fast this place went up it appears that a fire sprinkler system would not have had the time to begin to work, even if a system had been installed. I have to believe that the "foam" material that was supposedly installed in the ceiling had to have been highly flamable. I can't imagine even bare wood burning that fast.

Now the creepy question: how many buildings have we walked into not knowing that they were fire traps? I've started to become really observant of the structure when I eat at restaurants, etc.

[Richard Kimball]

Maybe you can answer a little bit why people are milling around in the parking lot while people are stuck in the doorway being helped by a helpless few

You already listed most of the reasons. Most of us don't face these types of situations on a daily basis, and it's a lot more overwhelming than you expect. At my first big fire (big being a relative term), I looked at the flames going forty feet in the air, and the first thought that went through my head was, "My God! They ought to call someone!" I'd been through six months training, and this was the first time I really realized what I was getting into.

People get dazed in emergency situations. Most of the people in the parking lot had already seen individuals burst into flames, and it's a very surreal thing to look at. In one way, I feel sorry for them (the ones who stood and watched). It kind of reminds me of the end of the Caine Mutiny, when Keefer, as Captain, abandons ship, and his Exec saves it. There are only maybe two or three moments in most people's lives where they're faced with the ultimate challenge, which is to panic and save your skin or face the challenge. These people will live the rest of their lives knowing they panicked at the one time they could have made a difference. Want to bet some of them left their girlfriends inside? The ones at the door will be haunted, but at least they'll know they tried.

[Jhoffa_]

If you are in an enclosed area, on the floor say during a fire.. opening the door to allow oxygen in might contribute to this "flashover"

But, if you don't.. you're screwed regardless.

What are you supposed to do exactly?

[this_ol_patriot]

I heard on one of the early interviews that the material that caught fire was egg crate foam rubber used as a sound absorbant. If this is the same stuff I'm familiar with it is highly flammable and burns rapidly with a thick dense oily noxious black smoke. We used to hate to get this stuff at our old medical waste incinerator because it would flash so fast and there was no way to keep it from creating roils of black smoke out of the stack and we always had to file a smoke report with the state DEP.
This is not good stuff to have near any heat source.

[Richard Kimball]

is this some sort of typical or common reaction?

Yeah, it's fairly common, but not universal by any means. Sometimes people trying to help are worse than the ones milling around. A few years ago, my department made an apartment fire where an angry boyfriend had doused all the hallways with gasoline and set them on fire. The first in engine was literally attacked by people trying to help. They pulled the rack lines off, and much of the large diameter hose, grabbed axes, and generally disabled the vehicle, as it was unable to lay a line to a hydrant. I didn't make that fire, but the officer who did took several weeks to get back to normal. A four month old baby died in the fire, and several people were running out in flames when he arrived. He lost his entire attack capability and that seriously shakes you up.

[RLJVet]

Thanks so much for your answer. You verified a lot of what I was thinking and discussing today and yesterday. My thoughts were on them (the guys mentioned) and how they could live with it, as opposed to having tried to help. When you train for and experience mass casualty and fire you get a chance to think ahead to where you want to be on the other side of it, if you don't think about these things as a civilian. This film will get folks thinking, whatever the intent was in filming. I have just one more question, if you don't mind. Did those people have a chance, anyway? Do you just get someone to give them a blessing?

[hole_n_one]

Did those people have a chance, anyway

Read the section called Force on page 5 of this PDF file titled Cause and Prevention of Crowd Disasters

[FreedomPoster]

Excellent comment on the eggcrate foam. That material is very likely to have been applied to improve interior acoustics.

Excellent thread, Richard. In a past life, I did building mechanical design include fire protection systems, and had a working knowledge of NFPA codes. Everything you posted is spot-on. I'm no super-duper courtroom expert, but I know more than the average bear, and your post hits this topic very effectively. I think this post will end up being 90% congruent with the final report on this tragedy.