THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES

2/22/2003

[harpseal]

I honestly can not point to a specific case where such has happened and I would not expect a problem outside NY, NJ, MA, CT HI, IL, or maybe some parts of CA. In NJ possession of a hollow point round is a crime. I waqs thinking more of the case where it is very much marginal and the prosecution is for possession of a firearm instead of the righteousness of the shoot. No I can not cite any specific example and I am relying on a certain "expert's" logic in this. The primary reason for using that logic is that said expert is a regular "expert" witness in justifiable shooting cases.

[SauronOfMordor]

I call it the "Rule of Trump." My pistol trumps your karate, period. Your AR-15 trumps my pistol. My tank trumps your AR-15. Your A-10 trumps my tank, and so on up the line.

Depends on circumstances. If your pistol is within arm's reach of my teacher, you're not likely to keep it for long. If your pistol is within 3 yards of my rifle, you're likely to be faster to the shot than I will. If your tank's crew are outside the tank fixing a tread, my rifle will create problems for them, as would your tank's main gun as it crashes through the airstrip's fence catching my A-10 on the ground.

[Travis McGee]

SUR = Sport Utility Rifle, AKA semi auto military pattern rifle.

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

You won't see him doing this if you are focusing on your sights. Neither will you see any of his buddies coming to his aid from the side.

My training covers this point too. If you have time to align your sights you take two shots, then a quick look at your assailant. If your target is down, a fast glance to the right and left sides of you. After this is completed you look back at your assailant and check him out for two seconds, then scan the area for any remaining enemies. If the area is clear it is time for a tactical reload. Reload your pistol then look around. If area is still safe, reholster your weapon.

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

I need to make an annoucement. There is a small error in the Hatcher Ratings on the .45 ACP round.

The .45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain should be rated at 60.7

The .45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain should be rated at 66.8

[sneakypete]

The primary reason for using that logic is that said expert is a regular "expert" witness in justifiable shooting cases.

This same "expert" makes a VERY good living selling books and videos,yet even HE can not come up with ONE single case where the type of bullet or load fired had anything to do with a case. I guess it would be possible in NJ for a zealous DA to charge someone involved in a "good shoot" with the local felony of being in possession of hollow-points,but even that hasn't happened. I suspect the biggest reason for this is it would get thrown out of court,and the DA making the charges would look foolish. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been convicted of this "crime" in NJ. It's just a political pose.

[sneakypete]

My training covers this point too. If you have time to align your sights you take two shots, then a quick look at your assailant. If your target is down, a fast glance to the right and left sides of you. After this is completed you look back at your assailant and check him out for two seconds, then scan the area for any remaining enemies. If the area is clear it is time for a tactical reload. Reload your pistol then look around. If area is still safe, reholster your weapon.

If you're happy believing that nonsense,I'm happy for you.

[KneelBeforeZod]

9/10 times that I say I have a Glock 22, people ask "Glock makes a .22?"

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

If you're happy believing that nonsense, I'm happy for you.

How are the techniques I described nonsense? Is it nonsense to know what is going on around you?

[sneakypete]

How are the techniques I described nonsense?

I already explained this to you in a earlier post. You don't believe me.

Is it nonsense to know what is going on around you?

No,and that's the very point I was making. The shooter looking over his gun with both eyes open will know what's going on around him. The one worried about sight alignment won't,but go ahead and believe what you want to believe.

[RyeWhiskeyJoe]

Great post to start a bigger is better thread.
I personally do not have .357 Sig or a .41 at this time,
but my .44 Special Bulldog sure is comforting when something goes 'bump in night' out here on the prairie. Just for grins, I ran my Desert Eagle .50AE through the
formula (love those ballistic software packages)---WOW,
a 308.263 rating! I guess bigger is better, but until I get in some more practice--still waiting on reloading dies--I think I'll keep that .44 Special close at hand.

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

The shooter looking over his gun with both eyes open will know what's going on around him. The one worried about sight alignment won't, but go ahead and believe what you want to believe.

There are many factors to using a gun in self defense. To say there is only one way to do things in every situation is not logical.

To say that one will not be able to see anything because they are using sight alignment is not true. There are statistics that point to the facts over and over to show that by in large those who only point shoot hit their targets only about 15% to 20% of the time. S.W.A.T. teams use sight alignment and hit their targets about 85% of time. I would wager to say that members of S.W.A.T. know what is going on around them in hostile situations.

It would be foolish to not use your sights to shoot if your wife had a knife at her throat and was being held by a deranged madman who was using her as a shield and only had his head exposed.

There are also times to point shoot as well. Every hostile situation could call for different self defense techniques.

[2nd_Amendment_Defender]

If you used the Hatcher formula to determine the stopping power of a rifle round it will not work. The Hatcher formula is only intended to measure the approximate handgun cartridge stopping power.

A .44 Special Bulldog is a very adequate handgun. .357 Sig and .357 Magnum are not as good as the .44 Special round in stopping power.

[Centurion2000]

But for police, carrying long guns routinely should be seriously considered.

No thanks, I'd rather not have our police forces looking like Rambo wannabes or mexican federales even if they are.

[Centurion2000]

Let me start by stating I think both the .44spl and the .45acp are excelent stopping cartridges. Further, let me state that I think reloading is an excellent hobby and something that should be encouraged.

I just started doing this myself ... it's actually quite fun to know that you are making the ammo that may one day save your life or take down whatever you hunt.

Developed my perfect load .... 360 solid LBT in 45 colt at about 1200 fps ... works like a champ in my ruger.

[sneakypete]

S.W.A.T. teams use sight alignment and hit their targets about 85% of time. I would wager to say that members of S.W.A.T. know what is going on around them in hostile situations.

ROFLMAO! See a SWAT team raid,and from all the laser lights flying all over the place,you would swear you are in a scene from Star Wars. The reason they use these lasers is so they can point shoot. Usually the wrong person.

[RyeWhiskeyJoe]

I agree wholeheartedly---by the way, the .50 AE is a handgun round--seven of them fit nicely in my 84 oz. Desert Eagle semi-auto pistol. 325 grain softpoint at 1600 fps or a stomping 350 grainer at about 1525 fps. Pretty much puts the stop on anything it runs across. I never really got too excited about 50 calibers (except muzzleloaders) until I saw Klintoon and Reno at a press conferance declare that there was no legitimate reason for anyone to own a handgun like the Desert Eagle .50 AE. That did it for me--best d__m reason I ever heard of to go out and buy one. At 84 oz., the recoil is not too bad (I,m 6'5" and 250#) but accurate quick follow-up shots do require lots of practice.

[30-06 Springfield]

May I join in? If so, have you ever considered this?

http://www.handloads.com/articles/45lc.htm

[harpseal]

Clearly a handloaded .45 Colt (or .45 Long Colt since there also is a .45 Colt in shorter version) can be an excellent defensive caliber. I still will be carrying my .45acp.

[30-06 Springfield]

Sadly it is no longer socially acceptable to walk down the street with the venerable "45" strapped on one's hip. Maybe those days will one day come back. I pray they come back in light of peace and not because we are forced to defend ourselves against the scum of the earth on a daily basis.