Struggle for Authentic Conservatism

LewRockwell.com ^ | 20 feb. 2003 | Ryan McMaken

[u-89]

Informed, reasoned posts appreciated, please leave the Bronx cheers and "rah-rah for my side" stuff to the anti-French threads and other base outlets.

[Sparta]

I'll watch this thread and learn more.

[Red Jones]

I like the real conservatives. Politicians like Reagan. Magazines like Chronicles. Intellectuals like Thomas Fleming. The Republicans today are just as harmful to our nation as Jimmy Carter or LBJ were.

[dighton]

Informed, reasoned posts appreciated, please leave the Bronx cheers and "rah-rah for my side" stuff to the anti-French threads and other base outlets.

Show some reverence, you slobs, this is the Church of True Conservatism.

;-)

[steve-b]

Unfortunately, many libertarians have insisted that, even in the real world, all forms of public authority are equally corrupt and illegitimate, and they have thus set up a false choice between supporting either all forms or none at all. Theoretically, this claim tells us that the local school board is as big a threat to liberty as the presidency.

The simple fact is that the local school board is as big a threat as the presidency -- it just has a different target. Arguably, filling your children's brains with mush is the greater threat, since it carries the potential of insuring that American ideals die with the current generation.

The most obvious illustration of the speciousness of this argument is for one to consider if he would rather his friends and neighbors be harassed by the local police chief or John Ashcroft. Hopefully, the choice would be obvious for any friend of liberty.

It is not at all obvious. John Ashcroft has more resources, but they are spread correspondingly more thinly. In each case, the result is about the same number of men with guns attempting to impose their will.

Radical decentralization is a cause that any libertarian should be able to get behind, and the paleos have touted the benefits of such an agenda for a long time.

The paleos need to make it clear that no level of government may do certain things, and that such limitations will be enforced -- by higher levels upon lower levels if necessary, "radical decentralization" or no.

The corruption of "states' rights" into an excuse for local oppression has done much damage here, and paleocon Rebel apologists exacerbate that damage.

[BlueLancer]

"Why fight over what laws to support after the Federal Reserve System is gone if the possibility of that happening in the near future stands at just about zero?"

"...this is the Church of True Conservatism."

Because, like all one-percenters, it's the empirical that matters most:

"Getting there might be messy, so let's just fight about the end result."
"You can't get there from here."
"Don't argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; let's argue about why there shouldn't be safety regulations forbidding those angels from taking drugs and have free sex while dancing there. And, is it a government pin?
"If we had some cheese, would could have a ham-and-cheese sandwich, if we only had some ham and bread."

[general_re]

Informed, reasoned posts appreciated, please leave the Bronx cheers and "rah-rah for my side" stuff to the anti-French threads and other base outlets.

Can I take your posts as canonical examples of "informed, reasoned posts"? I'd sure hate to think you were setting the bar so high that the rest of us would be remiss in letting you continue to post on this thread...

[BlueLancer]

Take the children and yourself
and hide out in the cellar.
By now the fighting will be close at hand.
Don't believe the church and state
And everything they tell you;
Believe in me, I'm with the High Command.

Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?

There's a gun and ammunition
just inside the doorway;
Use it only in emergency.
Better you should pray to God,
The Father and the Spirit,
Will guide you and protect from up here.

Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?

Swear allegiance to the flag,
Whatever flag they offer;
Never hint at what you really feel.
Teach the children quietly,
For someday sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still.

Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me,
can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running,
can you hear me calling you?

Silent Running
(Mike and the Mechanics)

[ggekko]

Is the Thomas Fleming referenced in this article the same man
who wrote "The New Dealers War"?

[aculeus]

Informed, reasoned posts appreciated, please leave the Bronx cheers and "rah-rah for my side" stuff to the anti-French threads and other base outlets.

For other base outlets go here.

[stainlessbanner]

< bracing for the obligatory "LewRockhead" post >

[Red Jones]

I don't know, I haven't read that article, but probably yes. Thomas Fleming's pretty radical. He's not been recently radicalized against the Republicans. He was like that over 20 years ago.

[ggekko]

"The New Dealer's War" was excellent book in which a number of Liberal New Deal myths were puntured.

A picture of the author on the dust jacket showed a man of about 70 years of age.

[u-89]

Well chief if you have a problem with my posts on other threads maybe you could respond there in a specific manner. If you would like to discuss this thread with something other than "loserdopian" please do. The point of posting this article was to stimulate debate and not as a launch pad for insults amongst fractions, sorry if my point was so unclear in post #1.

[Jael]

Good point. I just don't understand why people don't hold the conservative position.

[general_re]

The point of posting this article was to stimulate debate and not as a launch pad for insults amongst fractions, sorry if my point was so unclear in post #1.

IOW, to hold others to a higher standard than you demand of yourself, assuming "informed, reasoned posts" are our touchstone here...

[u-89]

-Regarding the school board issue your point is well taken here but if it just a local concern parents would have much more control over the "mush" but much of it is determined from on high so therefore is out of local control. This problem is a good argument for private schools v. public schools. Private control would give competition and choice but I can't see people giving up public schools as the concept has become set in the culture like concrete. Politically there is no way to fix this problem even if the Fed went away.

-Of course the problem with the law enforcement as is the federalization of so many crimes and the current militarization mind set at all levels of policing. Without so many federal crimes we wouldn't be so worried about this issue as the Fed would have no say and we would be dealing with just our neighbors making and enforcing laws - not a trouble free matter but easier to deal with, not impossible like the current situation.

- The paleos need to make it clear that no level of government may do certain things

Good point and that is why I left the conservative camp for the libertarian one. In the conservative cause I have seen too many with a mindset like our fellow freeper Cultural Jihad(not that he is a paleo but you get the idea).

I think the paleo-rebel thing is over blown. By that I mean I do not see any of them calling for a return to jim crow or slavery but that is how they are tarred and I am not sure that tar will come off easily or even ever. When you speak of local oppression here and above about no level of government having the authority to do certain things that is the key - respect for liberty - with that state's rights could not be abused. While the good old days were indeed good in many ways and superior in some and today is generally a degenerate mess at least today rights are universally recognized - in theory anyway.

[u-89]

IOW, to hold others to a higher standard than you demand of yourself, assuming "informed, reasoned posts" are our touchstone here..

Well pal this is the last time I will play with you. If you have a problem with a post of mine elsewhere comment on it there and there we can debate that issue. If you have any problem here on this thread regarding the column or my comments regarding this column then say so. If you want to continue being cute here feel free but then you've heard the last from me and all the lurkers can see the level we both are on and decide who is reasonable and who is the clown.

[general_re]

Yes. Here's a piece of advice - take it for what it's worth. Trying to dictate up front what sort of commentary you expect and will accept as legitimate is a sucker's game. Try posting articles and then stepping out of the way, in the future.

[KC Burke]

First of all, I think it is an article with more generosity to other points of view than I sometimes see from that site and I congratualte them for it.

I guess the one comment I have is about the strength they see in the "neocons". I see many on the Paeleo faction and the libertarian faction lamenting the asendancy of the neocons. I guess they are more prevelent on the NR editorial makeup than I would have imagined possible ten years ago and the Weekly Standard, Frontpagemag and some of that crowd seems like they are leading the forces rather than jumping on the wagon as it streams by, IMHO. I actually feel that the average conservative is friendly with many in all the camps and doesn't feel particularly chagrined if he isn't keeping a party-line ideology pure-- he simply is picking the principles and thinkers he respects and joining in with his votes and opinions.

But again, a fine olive branch accross the aisle by Lewrockwell.com.