Lawmaker's defense of internment called `preposterous' and `ignorant'

SJ Mercury News ^ | 2/6/03 | Cecilia Kang

[Stone Mountain]

The decrypted messages in MAGIC make it clear that Japanese-Americans were providing the Japanese with military information (ship movements and the like).

Even if this were true, it's clear that not ALL Japanese-Americans were providing the Japanese with military information. I have no problem with prosecuting those Japanese-Americans that were providing the Japanese government with military information. We have had many Caucasian traitors in this country as well - but in their case, we go after the actual people who were traitors; not everyone who happens to look like the traitors. Imprisoning all Japanese-Americans for the acts of a few makes as much sense as imprisoning all Caucasian-Americans for all the serial killers that they have produced. Here in America, (And remember, those Japanese-Americans are AMERICAN citizens) we aren't supposed to imprison people solely because of they way they look.

[Stone Mountain]

Do you honestly believe that all of the Arab "Americans" who have pledged allegiance to the U.S. and yet have criticized President Bush and the U.S. position on Iraq are good Americans?

Where did I say that? I just don't believe that absent any other information other than that they have Arab backgrounds, that we should be imprisoning them. We shouldn't imprison people in this country just for criticizing President Bush and the U.S. position on Iraq.

[Stone Mountain]

Where did I brand a lot of people as bigots? I can disagree with someone on this issue without calling them bigots, can't I?

[Doctor Stochastic]

You should realize that it was not Japanese that were interred. It was American citizens who interred on the basis of their appearance rather than their actions.

[Stone Mountain]

Sorry - my bad - I actually did call the guy quoted in the article above a bigot. Still, I'm not trying to call everyone in this forum a bigot, but I am trying to show that it isn't a great idea to imprison people soley on the basis of their race.

Incidentally, I haven't read the book yet, but I understand the points that were made. To me, just because some Japanese-Americans were helping the Japanese war effort is not a sufficient justification to imprison all Japanese-Americans.

[Stone Mountain]

Right or wrong, but if the U.S. and China ever tie it up, I would have no problem removing many Chinese "Americans" for fear of espionage.

So you don't believe that Chinese-Americans will ever deserve the same rights as other American citizens?

[A2J]

Where did I say that? I just don't believe that absent any other information other than that they have Arab backgrounds, that we should be imprisoning them. We shouldn't imprison people in this country just for criticizing President Bush and the U.S. position on Iraq.

I believe in the right of any American, both born and naturalized to experience what it means to be an American.

However, what I'm saying is that the internment that occured in WW2 is understandable because of the close ties of many Japanese-Americans and their relatives in Japan. To my knowledge, they were not mistreated while interred and apologies have been made.

I also would have no problem with intensifying methods of gathering information of Arab-Americans (naturalized) in the time of war.

[Stone Mountain]

You should realize that it was not Japanese that were interred. It was American citizens who interred on the basis of their appearance rather than their actions.

This fact seems to elude a lot of people...

[Jim Noble]

>> a listener suggested that Arabs in the United States be confined<<

And, if Congress will cooperate and declare war, they will be.

[A2J]

So you don't believe that Chinese-Americans will ever deserve the same rights as other American citizens?

Of course, but if war comes, the first generation, naturalized Chinese should be under tight scrutiny. The second and successive generations are far more "American" than their ancestors and therefore pose a far less threat.

[Stone Mountain]

To my knowledge, they were not mistreated while interred and apologies have been made.

They were pulled from their homes and made to live in camps. They were given almost no notice, and were told to pack only one bag with no idea of what the conditions they were going to live in. They lost their property - many became sick because of the unsanitary conditions. It was no German concentration camp, but it sure wasn't a trip in the park either. In any case, it doesn't matter if they weren't beaten daily of starved - they were mistreated in that they were pulled from their homes, often separated from their fathers, and forced to live in a camp. I'm sure if the same thing happened to you today, you wouldn't say that you weren't being mistreated.

apologies have been made.

Yes. But if those apologies were heartfelt, we wouldn't have people like this congressman still trying to justify this type of internment. The apologies were made because the American government was wrong to do so. Many people here do not seem to grasp that.

[visualops]

I found this a good summation-

"When war came the decision to evacuate Japanese residents from the West Coast was largely based on MAGIC intelligence. Since protection of this intelligence source was critical to the war effort, a cover story was developed to justify the evacuation, which eliminated Japanese espionage and potential sabotage efforts, without revealing our cryptologic success.

After nearly sixty years of questioning and hindsight, the government's cover story seems far less plausible today than it did during the early days of the war. This has led many to believe that our government's motivations during the evacuation were less than honorable.

The issue of evacuation was problematic from the outset because about two thirds of those evacuated were U.S. citizens, mostly the children of Japanese citizens. Citizen children enjoyed certain rights under the U.S. Constitution which alien parents, after the declaration of war, did not. Instead of separating families to accommodate an idealized concept of justice, the decision was made to evacuate everyone.

When President Roosevelt authorized the evacuation he observed that there would probably be "some repercussions" and urged the Secretary of War to "Be as reasonable as you can."

Considerable effort was made during and after the evacuation to provide for the material needs of evacuees and to compensate them for their losses. Crops in the field were purchased, land leases were transferred, personal property was stored and cars were bought by the Army at Blue Book value. After the war additional payments were made to settle claims against the government for losses resulting from evacuation. Seditious and treasonous conduct by large numbers of Japanese residents was not prosecuted.

To be sure, it was a difficult time, but it was a difficult time for millions of others whose lives were forever changed by the requirements and sacrifices demanded by war. For many Japanese residents evacuation and life under government care provided much needed relief from trials and threats they faced on the West Coast. Thirty-five years after the evacuation a large-scale release of MAGIC intelligence was made which provided credible justification for the evacuation, justification which the wartime cover story lacked. Although this intelligence was readily available, it was ignored by those who had begun a movement in the mid-1970s to obtain punitive damages from the U.S. government for human suffering.

In the days of national doubting following the end of the Vietnam War considerable headway was made convincing the American public that the government, acting irrationally and not from military necessity, had perpetrated a civil rights outrage worthy of redress.

In 1980 Congress established the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians to investigate the World War II incident. In 1983 the Commission's findings were presented to Congress without any reference to MAGIC and its relationship to the evacuation. Since that time, in an effort to obtain money and to rewrite history, there has been an unrelenting effort to recast the reasons for the evacuation solely in terms of racism, war hysteria and lack of political will. In short, the 1942 cover story has been ceaselessly attacked while the real reasons for evacuation as revealed by MAGIC intelligence are ignored or denied."

[Stone Mountain]

Of course, but if war comes, the first generation, naturalized Chinese should be under tight scrutiny.

So you just don't believe that first-generation Chinese-Americans deserve the same rights as other American citizens?

[A2J]

So you just don't believe that first-generation Chinese-Americans deserve the same rights as other American citizens?

My point is that the naturalization laws of the U.S. are far too liberal, making it very easy for enemies of the U.S. to "set up shop" here.

First-generation expatriates are certainly entitled to the benefits of being a citizen although it comes with the double-edged sword of being subject to dire actions in the time of war. I do, however, believe that all such "actions" must be subject to due process.

Would you agree that the naturalization process of the U.S. has created a "Trojan Horse" system that has weakened the U.S.?

[Stone Mountain]

First-generation expatriates are certainly entitled to the benefits of being a citizen although it comes with the double-edged sword of being subject to dire actions in the time of war.

So apparently, the answer is that first-generation citizens are not entitled to the same rights as other American citizens...

I do, however, believe that all such "actions" must be subject to due process.

Hey.. that's all I'm asking. If every American citizen that was interned had that due process, I wouldn't be posting here now. I agree with you here - but I don't think we are talking about providing due process to everyone that would be interned.

Would you agree that the naturalization process of the U.S. has created a "Trojan Horse" system that has weakened the U.S.?

Not really - I don't think we are that weak... But this is a completely different subject - if you want to argue for making it more difficult to become an American citizen, you may have a case. But I believe that once you become an American citizen, you should be treated just like every other American citizen.

[swarthyguy]

>>Every conservative should read this book.

Every American should read this book.

Thanks for keeping this book front and center even tho' it's a couple of years+ old by now.

AS the threat level rises, despite the color code staying the same, a successful mass casualty attack in the USA, particularly if done by longterm sleeper jihadi cells, would bring about calls for a Manzanar solution.

It may perhaps be necessary to do it; emotions would be on fire and the security requirements too demanding for half measures.

The firestorm by the usual suspects necessitates Americans know the full and true story of the West Coast roundup.

[swarthyguy]

Italians and Germans suspected were rounded up on the east coast -- the racial issue may very well have been a factor but it wasn't the dominant or exclusive one.

China didn't attack the USA. And the Chinese weren't rounded up.

[Grampa Dave]

An uncle of mine by marriage was German American. He fought for our side in WWI and helped two aunts of his come to America just before WWII started.

It turned out these two 60 somethings were dyed in the wool Nazis and would have done anything to help the Nazis. He knew nothing of this side until the government came knocking at his aunts door to lock them up.

When the government came to intern them in a "camp", they cried and called him for help. When he saw the evidence, he asked for permission to shoot them.

They were locked up in a camp somewhere near Venita, Okla, with other Nazis like themselves and some captured Nazi prisoners.

When the war was over, this Uncle was able to get his aunts shipped back to Germany. He personally would have shot them if not for the law.

[swarthyguy]

Have you read any that i've referred?

Send me a couple of names if you have as a starting point for the list. All of a sudden, i've gone blank and will have to refer to my notebook for a list of books i've read.

[Stone Mountain]

This is an interesting story, but not that relevent to the wholesale internment of Americans. If the government had this kind of evidence on all the Americans the government interned during WWII, I would have no quarrel with the internments at all.