Book claims Chinese discovered America

UPI ^ | Published 1/7/2003 11:49 AM | By FREDERICK M. WINSHIP

[blam]

Luzia, 11,500 years old. The oldest skeleton ever found in the Americas, Brazil.

[MrsEmmaPeel]

As long as you sight those stars all the way on the return voyage, you will hit Asia. Their massive ships could have easily supplied the crews for long voyages. It's that simple.

Sorry but its not. That's why so few cultures were able to master sailing in the open seas (no coast hugging) and returning home to the exact place from which they started.

If you don't have a calendar, you don't have an ephmeris.
If you don't have an ephmeris, you can't figure out where you are.
If you can't figure out where you are, you can't get back.

Thanks for the debate. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Chinese astronomy in 1650 was incapable of this kind of sophisticated open sea voyage using stellar navigation. The Chinese certainly didn't practice it in 1295. Therefore, it is unlikely (as I wrote in my first post) that the Chinese acquired all the knowledge of the heavens by 1400 (an item claimed by the author) to outperform navigational feats of the Vikings only to lose that knowledge by 1650.

[Mark17]

Book claims Chinese discovered America

Has Al Gore claimed to have discovered America? I mean, he has claimed everything else, why not this?

[sneakypete]

So, basically, we are to believe that between 1292 the Chinese absorbed all the knowledge of calendars and stellar navigation, discovered the Americas, then promptly forgot this knowledge by 1650.

I don't think so.

The white man stole it from them.

[Eternal_Bear]

I will add this in closing: The Vikings certainly had no ephemerises. I have no understanding why you contend that they were more advanced than the Chinese in navigation. The government scientists of China of 1650 may have not understood navigation but that doesn't mean that the common seafaring merchant didn't either. I have never heard of any navigational expert claim that you can't traverse oceans without an ephemeris. Good Day.

[B Knotts]

And there were reports of Mandans with blue eyes.

I think what it all boils down to is this:

Ancient people (from Europe, China, Africa, the Mediterranean, etc.) were much more capable of traversing great distances and oceans than we have previously thought.

[B Knotts]

Don't fool yoursel, the Europeans of Marco Polo's age (especialy North Western Europeans) with the exception of the Byzantines were unbathing moronons.

I am really trying my hardest to restrain myself from the obligatory insult of the present-day French here.

[muawiyah]

DeSoto's associates must have attended dance lessons with the Mandan's circa 1541 when they were in the area.

On good authority, even the blackest of Asian eyes are overwhelmed with a certain type of hazel gene that causes all of the color to gather at the rim of he iris at puberty. The sons of Ir are exceedingly potent.

[Destro]

Many people forget that the Ainu of the Northern Japanese Islands are Caucasions. That Caucasians, Mongoloids could have crossed the landbridge into the Americas should not be a suprise. Negroids probably sailed to South America from Australia as well.

[maro]

The introduction of that much palladium would depress palladium prices, so that's not quite right. Something similar happened when the Spanish brought back massive quantities of silver from the New World. Ask yourself this: would you trade half your property for a bunch of palladium? Nah; no use for it. On the other hand, I'm all for space exploration.

[Utopia]

You totally overlook the fact that stars move. The earth moves. Stars, moons and planets change position with time. I double checked Mrs, Peel Full Moon example and it is an excellent one. If you don't get that point then I'm sorry for you.

Figuering out where you are on dry land is hard enough. A long distance voyage in open seas is impossible unless you know your astronomy. The Chinese didn't have it. They could not adjust their own calendar (based on pure observation) on their own -- and those calculations were fixed at 120 E, they sure as heck were incapable of finding their way in open seas.

Stars move, the earth moves .. the boat moves ... Suppose you have perfect weather going .. bad weather coming what do you do? Stars rise and set at different times ...

[Utopia]

Are you an astronomer? You have an excellent understanding of the issues.

[No Truce With Kings]

"Sorry but its not. That's why so few cultures were able to master sailing in the open seas (no coast hugging) and returning home to the exact place from which they started.

If you don't have a calendar, you don't have an ephmeris.
If you don't have an ephmeris, you can't figure out where you are.
If you can't figure out where you are, you can't get back."

Hmmm. . . someone forgot to tell the Polynesians that, I guess. They managed some impressive feats of navigation without an ephemeris. In fact, without a compass. Probably the most primitive open-ocean sailors in history.

Actually, according to your assertions Columbus could not have crossed the Atlantic. He did not return home to the "exact same place" from which he started, as his return voyage was considerably north of his outward voyage. (He wanted the wind behind him. So you take a southerly track out, catching the trades, and a northerly track back, catching the westerlies.

The point-to-point navigation of which you speak did not exist much prior to the mid 19th century. Columbus, Magellan, Cabot, Drake, et al, pretty much used navigational tools and techniques that were virtually identical to those available to the 14th and 15th century Chinese -- log line, quadrant, sand glass, and compass. In fact, Columbus really did not use a quadrant well. He mostly depended upon log line, glass, and compass, and generally made a hash of it when he tried to do celestial navigation.

The real reason that there was so little deep-sea navigation was less navigation limitations as lack of destinations. Look at maps of civizations prior to 1500 (European, Arab, Indian, Chinese, and Amerindian). What open-ocean routes are commonly taken.

Among the Europeans, there were only two. A day-sail across the North Sea, or a voyage from the Basque or Breton coast to the Grand Banks. (Yup, those primative fisherman, without even an ephemaris.)

The Arabs and Indians shared one -- sailing from the Horn of Africa to India on the monsoon winds.

The Chinese? The Pacific is mighty wide, and there isn't much of value on the other side. Although Cheng Ho did cross open ocean on his voyages between Africa and India.

The main reason open-ocean travel became common after 1500 has nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with economics. New Spain, New France, and New England provided an incentive to cross open ocean that was absent previously.

And I think you are underestimating the Chinese. They were considerably more sophisticated -- at least their seagoing technology -- than the Europeans of the 14th and 15th century. I don't think they circumnavigated the globe, but I would not be surprised if they doubled the Cape of Good Hope.

You might want to read Ma Huan's "Ying-Yai Sheng-Lan" (The Overall Survey of the Ocean's Shores). It documents the Cheng Ho expeditions. An English translation was published by the Hakluyt Society (London) in 1970, with a reprint by the White Lotus Co. (Bankok) in 1997. It should be available through interlibrary loan.

[NukeMan]

Before spending nearly thirty dollars, consider finding a copy of COULUBUS WAS LAST by Patrick Huyghe

Thanks for the tip - my local library had a copy, and I have started reading it. It looks fascinating...

[goody2shooz]

Hi maro!

Mining and exploiting that much PGM would indeed cause a financial collapse IF it were not handled appropriately. Spain, of course, is the classic example.

I hope that one day we will have orbiting smelting and processing facilities in conjunction with zero-G vacuum manufacturing and fabrication facilities that can take advantage of the unique properties some PGMs possess. Manning these facilities shouldn't be required; they would most likely be automated.

[Eternal_Bear]

All the empiracal evidence suggests that ancient seafarers were criss crossing oceans long before so called modern navigation was developed in the 18th Century: cocaine found in Egyptian mummies; the cinnamon trade between Rome and the East Indies via Madagascar; the vast voyages of discovery and commerce that the Polynesians and the Micronesians demonstrated. Even Columbus couldn't determine longitude and he criscrossed the Ocean numerous times. His instrumentation was no better than the Chinese.

What is your point? Are you saying Oceanic voyages were impossible before the modern age? For two and a half centuries Europeans criscrossed the Atlantic without accurate calendars or timepieces. How do you explain that? Doesn't that blow a hole in your ludicrous assertions?

[SunkenCiv]

Not a ping, just a GGG update.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on, off, or alter the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[fish hawk]

I could be wrong but I thought the Indians discovered America. They were here when Columbus got here and also when the Chinese came here to do their laundry.

[Cowboy Bob]

Thanks for bumping this article. I missed it first time around...

I was having dinner with my parents a few weeks back, and the subject of the Chinese discovery of America came up. I must admit that I had never heard such a claim, but was told of the following discovery, which this author also cites:

Menendez's report no longer seems incredible in light of the discovery 20 years ago of a medieval Chinese-style junk buried under a sandbank in the Sacramento River off the northeast corner of San Francisco Bay, Menzies says. Fragments of wood taken from the ship have been carbon-dated to 1410 and identified as cut from Keteleria, a Chinese evergreen tree unknown in America.

Any idea where the remains of the junk are kept?

[Quix]

thx very interesting.