Russia Says 28 Rebels Lay Down Arms in Chechnya

"Will you also call the brutal Russian regime, which as terrorized and brutalized far more civilians than the Chechen Rebels, "terrorists"?"

No.

And BTW, Chechens are NOT rebels they're muslim terrorists (ie, anti Christians).

"The Apartment bombings would not have been carried out for foreign consumption but rather for domestic purposes."

Why? If as you claim the KGB/FSB "took over" Russia with the intention of transforming it into some kind of dictatorship-lite, then they have no need to cater domestic favor. That's one of the reasons that dictators set up their regimes to begin with, so they aren't accountable to the masses.

More to the point, as I've noted, the Chechens had already invaded Dagestan and Khattab's rhetoric at the time essentially indicated that he didn't plan on stopping the jihad until he got all the way to Moscow. While the idea of battering Basayev and Friends into submission may not have been an easy sell before the apartment bombings, the destruction of Khattab's vanguard and defense of Holy Mother Russia almost certainly would be.

"The mothers of Russia had grown tired of watching their son’s come home in body bags fighting a far off conflict that did not affect them."

But between 1996 and 1999 there was no fighting in Chechnya (other than the type that involves drug running, kidnapping, and human trafficking). Khattab had invaded Dagestan and the war had been brought to Russia, not vice versa.

"Bringing the conflict directly the heart of the Russian people would overcome the opposition that had been organized by the Russian Mom’s of dead soldiers during the first Chechen conflict."

If you were living in Dagestan in 1999, methinks that the conflict would have already been brought to you. Khattab's soldiers implemented the sha'riah in every village they passed, killed Christians, burned churches, bars, and beauty salons, and demolished Sufi shrines. In other words, they tried to recreate the Taliban in Russia. Now imagine if that was happening in America a couple of years after Vietnam. Would the American people have stood for it? Dear God, I hope not.

"It is hard to disprove a conspiracy simply because none of the participants have come forward to expose it."

Let me tell you something about real conspiracies. They're almost impossible to keep under wraps for years after they've been implemented unless you have either a ruthless and effective secret police system or inspire a tremendous amount of loyalty. Russia has a great deal of corruption and hence does not possess the former and the latter is rather debateable in regard to Putin prior to the apartment bombings.

"If there were a government conspiracy to bomb the apartment buildings then the Russian Mob would almost assuredly have been involved."

Uh-huh. The Russian government, which existed at the time on a fairly law-and-order platform, was going enlist the mob (a large percentage of which consists of Chechens) to blow their apartments so that they can justify a war that has already begun to reconquer Chechnya? Think about what you're saying here ...

"The Russian Mafia’s power and connection within the Russian society would make it possible to intimidate or silence most exposure of the truth."

The problem with the Russian mob in the type of conspiracy you're proposing is that you're ignoring that a lot of them are Chechen and that the mob is not a monolithic entity, anymore than say ... "big oil" is. It is an umbrella term for hundreds if not thousands of criminal cartels and, contrary to popular perception, it is hardly the Illuminatii, especially outside of Eastern Europe.

"As for most people or Russian soldier being hesitant to kill innocent civilians, history is and even are current time are full of examples to the contrary."

There is a huge different between the Soviet Red Army and the current Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. How many civilians do you think have been killed in Chechnya in porportion to the number of say ... dead Palestinian civilians throughout the course of the al-Aqsa Intifada.

"The western press when it covers the story of the Chechen war is full of examples of indiscriminate slaughter on the part of Russian soldiers. While the western press is not perfect it still does much better at presenting the truth than does the Arab press."

Actually, I disagree. At least al-Jazeera can describe Barayev as a "captain in the mujahideen army of Osama bin Laden," a connection that CNN and other Western news outlets refuse to make despite the manifold body of evidence to the contrary. The Western press routinely apologizes for the Chechens talking about their just struggle for independence against the evil Russian imperialists. The fact that the Russians are now reviled by the left after over 40 years of eulogizing them should tell you something about which side the Russians are on.

I have read your reply and I can't find a valid point contained there in. We also seem to have been sidetracked by the issue of the Russian Leaderships potential involvement in the apartment bombings. Even if the leaders aren’t concerned with the citizens well being it still helps to have their support instead of opposition.

The original point for which there is ample evidence is that the Russians have in the past and continue today to terrorize the civilian population of Chechnya. An Acquaintance of mine grew up in Chechnya before escaping the old Soviet Union. He still has friends and family in the region who would like nothing better than to be left alone by all sides but they fear the Russians far more than the rebels. Even ethnic Russians living in the area have been slaughtered by the Russian military while enforced observation of sha'riah law was for the most part confined to the more rural villages.

"I have read your reply and I can't find a valid point contained there in."

If you ever do, be sure to let me know.

"We also seem to have been sidetracked by the issue of the Russian Leaderships potential involvement in the apartment bombings."

Which you brought up, not me. You also brought up the subject of the Russian mob's complicity in the explosions, which is a completely different scenario from that which you initially advanced.

"Even if the leaders aren’t concerned with the citizens well being it still helps to have their support instead of opposition."

As noted in several other posts, they already had that. Khattab had invaded Dagestan, unless you feel that the Russian people wanted the Kremlin to throw that to the Chechens as well, whether the province wanted it or not. I highly doubt this was the case, so there was no need to blow up a perfectly good section of Moscow to trump up support for the war.

"The original point for which there is ample evidence is that the Russians have in the past and continue today to terrorize the civilian population of Chechnya."

Evidence, however, can be used to support any conclusion. If you don't believe me, check out the standard European leftist report on Israel's human rights abuses. There are a lot of dead Chechen civilians and I don't pretend for a moment to dispute that. However, there are also a lot of dead Afghan civilians and the fact of the matter that the US doesn't plan to terrorize the good people of Afghanistan.

"An Acquaintance of mine grew up in Chechnya before escaping the old Soviet Union. He still has friends and family in the region who would like nothing better than to be left alone by all sides but they fear the Russians far more than the rebels."

There is ample reason for such fear culturally, given what Uncle Joe did to the people of Chechnya. It's like asking the Armenians to forgive the Turks. Of course, the fact that the such fears exist culturally have nothing to do with whether or not they're supported by the facts. Today, two Chechens were perfectly willing to slaughter their own people for the sole purpose of killing a civilian who has nothing to do with Russian military policy in Chechnya. His crime is that he has denounced the Wahhabis and for that reason alone, by Basayev's logic, he deserves death.

"Even ethnic Russians living in the area have been slaughtered by the Russian military while enforced observation of sha'riah law was for the most part confined to the more rural villages."

The reason for that currently lies in the fact that the major urban areas are under Russian control. The fact that the Grozny was the capital of kidnapping, drug running, prostitution (for non-Muslims), and Wahhabi puritanism (for permanent residents) when Basayev's greenshirts ran the place is well-recorded by reliable sources. Just look at all of the Sufi shrines that were demolished and persecution against the Hanafis (a moderate Muslim sect) that occurred under the Chechen "republic" is more than enough to convince me and most other people that the sha'riah was indeed the rule of the day among the Chechen al-Qaeda.

You brought up the apartment bombings in your first reply, but I guess you wouldn’t want to break your streak by getting a fact straight.

That was 60%, three-fifths. Not 75%. Personally I always thought 60% was about right and we ought to go back to it; I also liked Socrates' valuing a Woman at one-half Man.