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Bonding Roads is Right Direction (Or: College Student Understands the Truth behind "Smart Growth")
Minnesota Daily ^ | 12-11-2002 | Shannon Fiecke

Posted on 12/11/2002 1:41:17 PM PST by bigaln2

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Instead, the goal is “smart growth” designed to control our lives.

The only way to increase our state’s budget is to increase production output, creating additional tax revenues. Besides lowering taxes and cutting spending, the quickest method of improving our economy will be to increase state commerce through faster in-state transport of goods and services.


She gets it!
1 posted on 12/11/2002 1:41:17 PM PST by bigaln2
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To: bigaln2
We can apply a little free-marketness to the problem of road congestion by charging tolls based on the time of day the road is used. During Rush Hour its a certain amount. Other times there's no charge. Maybe split up the rush hour into two different charging periods.
That way the people that use the road when it is over capacity pay for its use. The people that decide to change their schedules, or don't have to be at work at 9AM save money.
Right now everyone sees road use as free and with no cost, except for their time. So everyone's on the road between 8 and 9AM leading to traffic jams.
Plus charging for peak time use makes you less dependant on gas taxes, which charge everyone no matter if you're adding to congestion.
2 posted on 12/11/2002 1:56:58 PM PST by lelio
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To: Willie Green
ping
3 posted on 12/11/2002 2:17:54 PM PST by Fish out of Water
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To: bigaln2
Remove the Minnesota by-line and insert Seattle and the situations are mirrored. Wow! Maybe the sleeping majority are starting to wake up to this insidious social engineering we've been experiencing for several decades.
4 posted on 12/11/2002 2:24:04 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: Fish out of Water
Fish Rain on Northern Greece
5 posted on 12/11/2002 2:26:36 PM PST by Willie Green
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To: bigaln2
She gets it! Bump!

(that was my immediate reaction, too, after reading her editorial and before seeing your comment)
6 posted on 12/11/2002 2:34:05 PM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: bigfootbob
I just had oral surgery yesterday, so I thought I would sign up for some more pain.

Building more roads only makes the problems worse.

There, I said it. I am a native Western Washingtonian (Bremerton) and I remember how the 6th Avenue bypass in Tacoma was going to relieve all that congestion on the Narrows Bridge. I think we had to wait 2 minutes in traffic during rush hour. Years later, we have a direct connect from the Narrows Bridge to I-5, and the problem is infinitely worse.

So, what did we do? We voted in another bridge. If one bridge has a lot of traffic, two must be even better. Now, we are going to sit in two bridges worth of traffic, as the Kitsap Peninsula fills up with yuppie ghettos. All those Californians need a place to go after they destroyed the Golden State, so we will build more roads, more 1/4 acre yuppie hell holes, more cars, more strip malls, more taxes, more government, more pollution, and more politicians promoting more roads to fix the problem.

If I am sitting in two lanes of traffic, do I want to sit in 4 lanes of traffic?

Progress is not always good

7 posted on 12/11/2002 2:43:02 PM PST by Orion
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To: Orion
"Progress is not always good"

The "Smart Growth" concept is never good. Our biggest problem is the Growth Management Act and the policies associated with the legislation.

For the past 20-30 years there hasn't been enough lane construction to keep up with the need. The lanes that have been constructed were not designed to be user friendly. The WSDOT and WSTC, especially the WSTC, wanted it that way so they could extract more cash from us serfs for failed public transportation fiefdoms.

I'm not a fan of the second Narrows Bridge, it's in the wrong place. The bridge should have been built from Olalla to Vashon to West Seattle. I sat on my hands during Sen. Oke's re-election because of his influence over this bad project.

I don't think we'll see the Pennisula become a yuppie hellhole, where the hell would they work? The GMA will not allow industry in the rural areas.

8 posted on 12/11/2002 3:12:41 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: bigfootbob
I have to disagree. There should not be any other bridge connecting Kitsap to King County. Roads = more houses = more people = more government.

You could build an 8 lane floating bridge that extended I-90 across Puget Sound, up Bainbridge Island, across Hood Canal and all the way to Port Angeles. The only thing you would do is to develop every square meter of land and make it look like Manhattan or the SF bay area. Traffic would be horrendous, and we would want another floating bridge to connect Kingston with North Seattle, and on and on and on.

Eventually, the Puget Sound would look like NYC. Is that what we want?

The problem is not too few roads. It's too many people.

9 posted on 12/11/2002 3:18:07 PM PST by Orion
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To: bigaln2
Instead of keeping up with transportation needs, the government has created the congestion mess

That's the truth. They don't know at all what they are doing. No more towns, no more communities, local roads become arterials, no place to walk to - got to drive, got to have a car - 14 trips per day.

10 posted on 12/11/2002 3:19:05 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: Orion
Shall we start building walls instead?
11 posted on 12/11/2002 3:21:14 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: bigfootbob
If I understand you correctly, you are asking how do we keep people out. Correct?

The only reason people move out to the country is because it has become easier for them to commute to the city. If you had to drive on a two lane road from Seattle out to Issaquah, few would make the drive. If you have 5 lanes in each direction on a limited access interstate freeway, many will move to Issaquah. They will build their McMansions, dry cleaners, Taco Time, Isuzu dealership, and all the trimmings. Soon, someone moves further out to get away from it all. The road follows, as do another 10,000 yuppies. The cycle keeps repeating until you run out of land (NYC, SF, LA)

Quit building the roads, and people will not want to sit in 2 hours of traffic to get to their job. Fewer jobs, fewer people, less government, more freedom...

12 posted on 12/11/2002 3:27:51 PM PST by Orion
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To: Orion
You speak as if there's an unlimited urban space to accommodate the population and the workplace. That's not the case.

Limited supply = high costs. Most people don't want to live in a 800 square foot high rise apartment next to their place of work. Not to mention living like this is antithesis to the American Dream.

Restricting land use requires more government, and more restrictions on our liberties.

13 posted on 12/11/2002 3:51:33 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: bigfootbob
Very true. I lived in Honolulu and that is what you have. Building more roads only will attract more people. The end result is a city that looks like NYC, and that's a lot of government.

I never said restrict land use. All I said was building more roads only worsens the condition of urban blight and congestion.

14 posted on 12/11/2002 4:13:00 PM PST by Orion
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To: bigfootbob
We build the roads with gasoline taxes -- so build mass-transit with gasoline taxes.

I've tried to consider the free-market proposal to charge higher peak-hour tolls on expressways but that would mean that I've paid to build the road through my taxes, and now I'll pay to use the road through tolls. Doesn't sit right with me.

Let's build the rail system and make if free to ride the train. It's simply there, just like the road. Another way of getting to work.

To make things fair for the gasoline taxpayer, perhaps we could allow registered vehicle owners free fares, while those who don't own an insured and licensed car would pay.

Use your car if you have errands to run or if the train schedule's inconvenient -- use the train if it works for you.

Once we established the custom of building roads in common, then I think we also did away with any idea that getting from here to there is a completely independent and free market issue.

15 posted on 12/11/2002 4:29:12 PM PST by BfloGuy
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To: BfloGuy
... one other thought. We could privatize road-building (wouldn't bother me).
16 posted on 12/11/2002 4:30:30 PM PST by BfloGuy
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To: BfloGuy; Orion; bigfootbob
We could privatize road-building (wouldn't bother me).
I think that would be a good idea -- in a city that hasn't been built up yet. In most major cities you couldn't buy up all that real estate to lay road. For better or for worse emminent domain has its advantages during construction.

How bout that two other Western WA people on here. I agree with the point that building more roads just equals more traffic equals more roads and so on. That's why I'm keen on the idea of time tiered tolls on I5, 520, 405, and I90 near Seattle. Charge enough to reduce traffic to make it flow easier. Perhaps no tolls for HOV people.
Another aspect of the traffic in Seattle is the total lack of infrastructure to cope with blips like accidents. I5 pretty much shuts down if you have a wreck. And various agencies (Qwest, installing traffic lights, widening the sidewalk, building construction) think *nothing* about shutting down a lane. Hey it doesn't cost them a thing. Meanwhile another 10 minutes has been added to my commute.

17 posted on 12/11/2002 7:43:02 PM PST by lelio
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To: lelio
Making the roads more efficient only allows more development and more people. Eventually, the roads will fill up at all times on the clock, rather than just rush hour. Political pressure will be brought to build more roads to allieviate the congestion, and we are back at square one.

Bottom line...more roads = more development = more houses = more people = more cars = more congestion = more demand for roads.

More people always creates more need for government and higher taxes.

When I was a kid, I-5 was virtually vacant during rush hour. Washington didn't experience a baby boom, but they did get lots of Californians and Cambodians to come in and snap up all the new homes built off the new roads.

So, what are we building new roads for? Answer: so we can have even more Californians leave the state they screwed up to come up and screw up Washington.

The only thing you ensure when you expand a two lane road to a four lane road is that within a few years you will be sitting in four lanes of traffic.

18 posted on 12/11/2002 7:56:38 PM PST by Orion
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To: lelio
Another problem with your toll roads...more taxes = more government. Also, with auto pay systems (transponders) taking tolls, it gives the gov't a nifty way to track your movements. That's always bad.
19 posted on 12/11/2002 7:58:26 PM PST by Orion
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To: Orion
Face it, the population is increasing just about everywhere anyone would want to live. If those folks want to live somewhere and are willing to pay the taxes to build the roads, I don't really understand the problem. They should have the freedom to live where they want and work where they want and spend the time on the road between the two if they want. I'm sorry that you find yourself inconvenienced, but you should also have the freedom to move closer to work or take a job closer to home to cut your commute time.

Is it really a solution to the traffic problem to pretend it does not exist and to refuse to build roads? I suspect that increasing the number of lanes available really doesn't cause more cars to magically appear.

20 posted on 12/11/2002 8:22:51 PM PST by SWake
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