BURNING THE CONSTITUTION: SECRET COURT OKS SPYING ON AMERICANS

CAPITOLBLUE.COM ^ | 11-19-02 | REUTERS

[KLT]

I trust Ashcroft, not the ACLU

So do I...I pray you're right...let's hope this new law isn't misconstrued, or misused...

[KLT]

Ping Y'all

[FormerLurker]

YES you are right....this is completely wrong...we are loaded with illegals and foreigners with criminal backgrounds...remember the Clintooon/Gore Citizenship USA Program....What a SCAM!

Not only that, but THOUSANDS of foreign nationals are working as scientists and engineers at such places as Raytheon, Lockheed, and many other defense contractors. Who knows how many are relaying anything of interest to their native land or "others"?

But yes, there is WIDESPREAD fraud in the H1-B program, where many companies apply for more visas than they actually need. I wonder what happens to all of those "extra" visas.....

Still, there are NO steps being taken to curb these abuses that I can see, and our "representatives" are all for allowing these people in.

[FormerLurker]

I agree with you FL on every point you've made....while we are busy with Iraq...China is sharpening its claws....

I wonder what we would do if while we're busy in Iraq, China decides to attack Taiwan. What if North Korea decided to attack South Korea at the same time? It could turn ugly REALLY quick.

[JohnGalt]

Ah, yes, the new movement in Conservatism called 'Living Forefathers." The liberals and their living Consitution have ruined your ability to see that the wisdom of the forefathes is timeless...that is what makes us Americans and you a Tory.

[Dr.Deth]

"Due to the US Patriot Act, we are not able to accept money orders or traveler's checks for payment, we can only accept personal checks or automatic transfers"

So, what's the scoop with this?

I think it means that on your cash where it says "THIS NOT EIS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE" is now null and void.

So, is all my cash now worthless due to the Patriot Act? We crossed on major threshold by implement the Federal Reserve and fiat money, seems like another Rubicon is getting swum here.

[KLT]

YES, more then UGLY and real quick....I agree...not to mention all the other rogue countries out there....What a MESS!

[aculeus]

Me and the terrorists agree on one thing: We're happy you are not in charge.

[Gig]

Let us assume, just for the sake of example, that the federal government decided to {pick a few of these} -
* do random searches of homes, looking for suspicious items or activities.
* do a search on each citizens' bank account that purchased any type of firearm or ammuniition and then search their homes.
* outlaw any private ownership of firearms.
* do traffic blockades with searches of any vehicle deemed "suspicious."
* arrest citizens and not give them due process of law, but put them into makeshift "camps" until the "truth" could be sorted out.

What would the citizens of America do? I don't mean what you'd like to see happen. How do you think America would react and what would be the steps that would be taken, and by whom? Not pretty, in my opinion.

[disgustedvet]

I'm afraid that those that would "do" anything, sure wouldn't say it here. Maybe you should ask how we would "feel"

Anger? Fear? Disgust? Or maybe - just maybe .... RECOIL!

[Hank Kerchief]

Me and the terrorists agree on one thing: We're happy you are not in charge.

I'm going to make you and the other terrorists unhappy I'm afraid. I am in charge.

Hank

[Hank Kerchief]

What would the citizens of America do?

They would sadly do what they have done so far, and what all the liberal repblicans on these threads are recommending, they will submit, and they will submit to any tyranny so long as it will make them feel safe.

Oh, they only want to save America from terrorists. But when all the freedoms are gone, what is there to save.

Here's an interesting link to one of today's posts, oddly ignored: Milksop Nation

It explains why Americans have and will simply fall over to tryanny. It is very sad.

Hank

[PolishProud]

Didn't Lincoln suspend habeas corpus during the Civil War? The last time I checked we still have this right. Name one civil or constitutional right that was taken away from us and not returned. In fact new "rights" are being created almost daily.

[Viva Le Dissention]

An interesting point, but it's one that misses the target, I'm afraid.

Despite my disagreement with the founders on this subject, the Constitution authorizes the President to suspend Habeas Corpus in cases of rebellion...etc. In fact, the Constitution speaks writ large on the subject by defining habeas corpus as a "privilege," not a "right." The former means it can clearly be taken away, and that is with the legitimate power of government. Of course, I think the founders erred on this subject, but it is what it is.

The 4th Amendment, though, is more clear.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Notice the terms "shall not be violated" and "but upon probable cause." It doesn't say "no warrants shall be issued but upon the government thinking it would be a good idea to search a person's house." It further goes on to narrow the government's power even more--it is clear that there is NO power but what is given to the government in the text of the amendment.

But what really disturbed me is a quote from the article that implies the Patriot Act violates the 4th Amendment, but it was upheld anyway.

"We think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant standards, certainly come close," the judges wrote in their ruling, which was partially declassified and published.

I find this the most disturbing quote in the whole article. Apparently the judicial system is now playing horseshoes with our constitutional rights; close enough is good enough? You've got to be kidding.

[RightWhale]

Except for some certain hot-button issues, the Right to Privacy implied in the Constitution was already a dead issue by 1964. Maybe this would go down better if some fleeting reference to War Powers were made. Instead, monitoring seems to have become permanent.

[el_texicano]

"If this is merely anti-terrorist searching-and-seizing, hence "reasonable" in time of war, are provisions made explicitly in the law to keep from using the fruits of such searches for prosecution of non-terrorist related crimes?"

That is a valid question. I don't know the text of what the Justice department is proposing, nor do I know of the text of the Homeland security bill either. If it is as you refer to it an "open ended search" allowance to the Justice department or any other department, then it is wrong and is going too far. As such it needs to be opposed.

I would like to find out more on the details of these bills or rulings. What I don't like from some comments I read is an automatic assumption of evil without evidence to support it. I've seen way too much conspiratorial thinking and not enough rational deliberation.

Still researching...

[sam_paine]

What I don't like from some comments I read is an automatic assumption of evil without evidence to support it. I've seen way too much conspiratorial thinking and not enough rational deliberation.

Welcome to FR!

[justshutupandtakeit]

Gee, what a great quote. We have never seen it around here.
Except every time that actions are taken to disable and resist our enemies. Then some brainless bozo pops it up as though it has any bearing on this issue WHICH IT DOES NOT.

You have lost no "essential Liberty" as a result of the implementation of this Act. But you may very well not lose your life because of its protections against the Islamaniacs who want to kill you.

Benjamin Franklin never recommended not defending the nation nor did he recommend allowing our enemies to attack us because of refusal of the government to protect us. Why don't you do a little review of the history of the American Revolution. Then you might understand that during times of war people cannot exercise all the rights they have in peace time.

[DAnconia55]

If Osama hadn't existed, the government would have had to invent him....