Boy Scouts to Atheist: Accept A God or Get Out

CNSNEWS.com ^ | 10/30/02 | Michael L. Betsch

[Pookie Me]

Although Lambert admitted to his scout troop's review board that, for years, he had intentionally neglected to demonstrate the principles of faith and reverence to God contained within the Scout Oath and Law, he was awarded the BSA's highest honor last year - Eagle Scout. Coincidentally, his mom is the Scoutmaster of that troop.

HOW THE CAN ONE INTENTIONALLY NEGLECT TO DEMONSTRATE ANYTHING? 'course, I'm sure the "Coincidentally" part had nothing to do with his Eagle award. Just the fact they gave him his eagle after this is just plain wrong.

Pookie & Me

[RonF]

Atheism may not be an organised church with a priest but it clearly is a position on a religious issue.

Yes, that's true. But that doesn't make it a religion.

Therefore excluding atheists is a form of religious discrimination.

True. So what? What's wrong with that?

Telling someone whose true belief is athiestic, "pick a religion, any religion" would not be sound spiritual advice. ... What the BSA are promoting is a compromise which works for some and not for others. I think atheism should be a legitmate choice.

The BSA is not giving any such advice, nor are they promoting any such compromise. They are presuming that you've already made a choice to adopt a particular religion, and accept the principles of the BSA. If not, don't join. No one's forced to join. In fact, if you don't have religion beliefs, the BSA doesn't want you to join. The BSA isn't forcing anyone to do anything, or suggesting that you do anything not in concordance with your beliefs.

[RonF]

Uhhh ....Isn't this kid a bit to old to be walking around in knee-high red sox, khaki shorts, and a wispy red tie? At 19, he's a legal adult for cryin' out loud. Time to grow up and enlist in the U.S. Armed Forces.

Perhaps he sees value in helping prepare young men to take their place in the world with a sound grounding in citizenship, character, and fitness.

[Polybius]

How many Scouts in your Troop? How many fathers?

We have 26 Scouts on the Troop roster, some more active than others.

I'm not sure how many fathers. Moms are usually the ones that drop the boys off at Troop meeetings and show up for the Troop Committee meetings and the Boards of Review.

Last year, five of us fathers were active: the Scoutmaster, two Assistant Scoutmasters and one other father and myself were the ones who went on all the overnight outdoor activities.

This year, the Scoutmaster is moving on to the Venture group with his son, one Assistant Scoutmaster moved out of town, the other father became the Cub Master of the Cub Scout Troop, the other Assistant Scoutmaster is becoming the new Scoutmaster and that leaves me to become the new Assistant Scoutmaster.

As far as the other fathers, who knows. I've never even met many of them.

The Troop has won the Quality Unit Award two years running but it is hard maintaining that level of quality without more fathers pitching in. A shortage of Merit Badge Counsellors is another big problem across the entire District.

[ganesha]

Saying it's not a "religion" is a matter of semantics. Your position says all belief systems are acceptable save one. Theoretically someone could worship satan and be a boy scout because he would be believing in a higher power. How is non-belief worse than that?

Also what happens if someone belongs to a religion when they start out as a scout, because that is the religion they were brought up with. At some point later, they change their mind as a result of reading and learning other things. Do you then tell them they have to leave?

What if someone starts out as a Muslim, then questions the validity of Islam and then becomes an atheist. Then at some point in the future they get tired of being an atheist and become a Christian. In that scenario, atheism would be a necessary transitional phase between Islam and Christianity. Would it be desirable to kick them out of scouting because they left Islam?

[RonF]

This is a difficult problem. You could try this. Send out a mailing to the entire Troop, addressing them to the fathers, even if you just use "Mr. < Scout's_Last_Name >". Tell them that you are calling a meeting of all the Troop parents a couple of meetings from when they get it, on the regular Troop meeting night. Enclose a Troop Parent Resource Survey, downloadable off of the web (or, I'll send you a copy, freepmail me with your e-mail address). Note in the letter that if only one parent is able to come because of smaller children in the family, you prefer that the father show up and the mother stay home.

Prior to the meeting, sit down and write up specific tasks that the Troop needs done, whether it be running the fund-raisers, directing any particular service projects, and of course all the scheduled outings and campouts. Also write down any skills that need to be taught, whether it be cooking, camping, fire-bulding, knots/pioneering, civics (the First Class requirement for the discussion on the Constititution and duties of a U.S. citizen), First Aid, astronomy, map and compass, flag work, etc. Make charts from some posterboards that have these things on them.

Also, put together two or three posterboards using pictures of outings your unit has been on. Then put together one or two more with lists of things that are planned, or that could be planned if you had people to do them (like a high-adventure trip).

At the meeting, have an opening ceremony. Then run some kind of inter-patrol competition. Say, a tent-raising race. If you want to show a lot of yelling and enthusiasm, do the blindfold one (all the Scouts but one is blindfolded, and the one who can see can't touch anything or anyone). Once that's done, send them outside, or to another room for program with a couple of ASM's.

Now it's your turn to speak. First, talk about the fun the kids just had, and the skills they've learned to do it. Trot out the posterboards that show the pictures from trips and talk about them for a couple of minutes (you might even have had them up before the meeting started).

Now tell them how this is all going to stop, because you and your fellow Scouters are getting burned out. Put up the other posterboards. Tell them you need:

Some people to put on the uniform and show up at meetings. Not every person has to show up at every meeting, but they have to commit to showing up at particular meetings, and handling specific program items when they do, having planned what they're going to do ahead of time.

Some people to take on directing specific activities, like a service project or fund-raiser. These things will have definite start and end times, which will make them more attractive to some people who don't want open-ended committments.

Some people to take on non-youth-contact positions, such as treasurer, publicity chair, transportation chair, adult QM, etc. These are really Troop Committee positions, in some cases. They can fit much of that into their own schedule, with maybe only one committee meeting a month.

Finally, some people to come on particular outings, not only to drive but to help supervise the Scouts and run program. You can emphasize that it's fun, and that they get to do something with their sons that their sons and they will both enjoy; how much opportunity do they have to do this?

Then invite them to step up and start signing up. And get them to register. The reason to register? They become covered under the BSA's liability insurance, and note that the BSA doesn't lose lawsuits.

If you feel the need to do so, you can say that since the Troop has outstretched it's adult resources, you may have to cut down on the size of the Troop at the next charter, in which case membership priority will be given to those Scouts whose parents are registered and active.

You might also talk to your sponsoring organization. It's their reponsibility to recruit leaders. They probably don't know that....

I'm not going to guarantee that any of this will work, but it's an approach, and you might actually get some help this way.

[RonF]

Saying it's not a "religion" is a matter of semantics.

No, I think it's substantive. Religions posit a power superior to human beings that humans need to accept in order to live ethically. Atheism doesn't.

Your position says all belief systems are acceptable save one. Theoretically someone could worship satan and be a boy scout because he would be believing in a higher power. How is non-belief worse than that?

Can Satanists truthfully subscribe to the ideals contained in the Scout Law and Oath?

Also what happens if someone belongs to a religion when they start out as a scout, because that is the religion they were brought up with. At some point later, they change their mind as a result of reading and learning other things. Do you then tell them they have to leave?

No. Why would that be necessary? The BSA doesn't say that your understanding of what your religious duties are can't change while you are a member. You just have to accept that you have some.

What if someone starts out as a Muslim, then questions the validity of Islam and then becomes an atheist. Then at some point in the future they get tired of being an atheist and become a Christian.

If someone transitioned from one religion to another, the BSA would have no problem with that. If someone transitioned from any religion to atheism, then that would disqualify them from membership.

[Diverdogz]

Yes, They may stay in scouts so long as they profess a belief in the Invisible Pink Unicorn, Bob the Raingod, Xena or even the God, Zilla (get it....Godzilla).

But what if you are a member of a Church such as the UCTAA? Does that count? Or what about the Universal Life Church?

[Polybius]

This is a difficult problem. You could try this. Send out a mailing to the entire Troop, addressing them to the fathers, even if you just use "Mr. < Scout's_Last_Name >". Tell them that you are calling a meeting of all the Troop parents a couple of meetings from when they get it, on the regular Troop meeting night. Enclose a Troop Parent Resource Survey, downloadable off of the web

Thanks for the advice. You seem to have been doing this for a while. :-)

I found a web site with downloadable forms here.

Regarding the female Scoutmasters, my friend at work may be a female and she is very cute but I have seen her in action with her Troop at a Camporee and she is a regular Drill Sargeant. She is also a very experienced backpacker. No "Troop Mommy" there.

In our rural county, "a five mile trip" to the next nearest Troop is not an option. When I was a kid in Miami, I rode my bike over 5 miles to my Troop meetings. That's no big deal in a metropolitan area. However, in this county, "the next Troop" means driving 40 miles through the woods and around the mountains.

In her community, either she is the Scoutmaster or there is no Troop. The male Scoutmaster or no Troop at all position also fails to recognize that the older Scouts are male role models for the younger Scouts.

My friend has told me that the most negative reactions she has received for being a female Scoutmaster has been from Scouters from LDS Troops.

[ganesha]

A satanist might or might not obey the laws of your organisation, (I don't know that I would trust them to be careful with fire though). An atheist could probably obey almost all of that stuff. An atheist could be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, and clean. Reverent would be the only potential problem. An atheist could be prepared and do a good turn daily and be clean in outdoor manners, careful with fire, considerate in the outdoors and conservation minded. He could also do his duty to self, other people and country. The only sticking point would be God. In almost all respects an atheist would be better able to keep your rules than a satanist. Yet the atheist is automatically disqualified because he won't recognise a "higher power" while the satanist would have to be given a chance and only kicked out after he burned down the forest.

The purpose of a religious faith is not just to obey rules in this lifetime though. It is also to determine what the truth is. Determining the truth requires a willingness to question one's beliefs and questioning belief means that unbelief must be treated as a legitimate possibility. A radical change from one religion to another is rarely a smooth transition. It is not an easy choice but sometimes it is necessary and the possibility that there is no God may have to be considered. It is not an accident that the most effective criticism of Islam is done by secular humanists like Ibn Warraq. To arbitrarily rule out atheism without having a sound reason for choosing faith is not spiritually honest, especially when everything else is permitted.

[WorkingClassFilth]

I don't know. Do you have personal knowlege of this?

[WorkingClassFilth]

Polybius, I can appreciate your situation just as much as I can that of RonF.

However, you seem to labor under the same kind of thought that dominates everything else in society today. That is, if something 'good' can come from the distortion of some ideal or standard, then discarding the ideal is justified and will yield benefits. Yeah, right. The evidence is so abundant.

Good intentions or hoped for outcomes do not justify the cavalier disregard for absolute values and the embodiment of those truths in ethics established in other ages. It is called tradition and it has meaning to the wise.

To my thinking, you make the case for the current assault on Scouting. That is, what is wrong with gay Scoutmasters if they mean well and are sincere? Further, if one gay Scoutmaster can be found that does a good job and is well liked, isn't that an endorsement for liberalizing Scouting policies?

If just one life can be improved by teaching ducks to sing opera, then isn't it worth a government ruling?

[WorkingClassFilth]

I see that you have failed to make your case based on the traditions and purposes of Scouting set forth by Powell and others like Beard and Seton.

What your ancestral history or the musings of Den-mothers dressed in Scoutmaster uniforms has to do with the core of the debate is beyond me. Some of my people can be traced to the Mayflower, but I would hardly try to make the case that this gives me deeper insights into Constitutional law.

Feeling and instances of good things do not contitute evidence or justification of anything. I would say, though, that you would be a fine one to found or run a youth group or the like. Go and do good. Go and be as free as you wish. Go and make lives better. Just avoid the justifications you make to pervert a sound and truly unique organization.

[punster]

You could probably write in almost anybody in that joke. I changed the joke to television evangelist, when there was so much scandal about some of them using the pulpit for profiteering.

[punster]

You could probably write in almost anybody in that joke. I changed the joke to television evangelist, when there was so much scandal about some of them using the pulpit for profiteering.

[RonF]

I am not familiar with either of those churches.

[RonF]

Actually, the BSA doesn't ban gay scoutmasters. They ban "avowed" gays. If a gay scoutmaser keeps his sex life out of the newspapers and other media, and doesn't kiss his boyfriend goodbye in the parking lot before heading off to camp, he's able to serve as a SM in good standing.

[iconoclast]

BTW, how many jobs have you created?

Gee, making no pretense to be in the same league with you and Bill ... and notwithstanding that, well, its none of your business ... about 50 (on direct payroll, not counting any ancillary roles in our clients' offices).

How much have your efforts increased the prosperity of others and society?

Since most of these were in one company that functioned for 20 years I could estimate it would be in the millions (several). I'm pretty sure the $ is the only standard of measure you're interested in, but I also took good deal of satisfaction from providing a lot of talented young people their first rung on the ladder.

I find it interesting that your respect for another's opinions is strictly correlated to the degree to which that individual has fueled the engines of industry.

[yendu bwam]

I, for one, think it is quite odd that an organization which is not specifically religious and for which the main purpose has nothing to do with religion would require this amorphous non-specific belief in any higher being as a condition of membership. Do the Scouts leadership honestly think that belief in some/any higher power is the same thing as morality? The variations between what counts as "God-given morality" among the worlds many religions is enormous.

Hey, jas3. Boy Scouts in general believes that God exists (which is why God is prominently in the Boy Scout Oath) - and that belief in God is very important to the formation of a young man. Over the years, in an effort to be inclusive, they have opened the organization to people (like Buddhists) who may not believe in God per se, but who have an established religion with belief in something greater than we (like nirvana). On the question of morality, yes, different religions' moralities differ (but not by an astonishingly great degree) - however, what is common to religious belief in general is that morality is independent of what we want it to be. Atheists (if they have any morality) can choose whatever morality (concept of good and bad) that they want. Boy Scouts doesn't believe that good and bad are whatever we want them to be. That's why atheists don't fit in with Boy Scouts.