Off Target (Lengthy tale about Britain's SA-80 'rifle')

The Guardian ^ | Thursday October 10, 2002

[Fixit]

[Fixit]

I searched and did not see this article listed.

[donozark]

Sounds like it is FN FAL time once again for the Brits. Just hope they haven't tossed 'em all in the English Channel as they did to NRA supplied weapons at the end of WW-2...

Maybe they should visit the FAL FILES for technical know-how?

[Tacis]

The old joke: "the toughest part about building any machine in Britain is engineering it so it will leak oil." "Why don't hey build color TV sets in Britain? - They could figure out how to make them leak oil."

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Having owned several of the species, I can tell you that our asphalt driveway never had it so good.

[Cicero]

We have to keep in mind that this is The Guardian. The writer seems to be obsessed with the idea that all the problems were caused by Margaret Thatcher and "privatisation." To the contrary, I would imagine that the problems were caused by government and military bureaucratic stupidity and inexperience among the new generation of engineers who consented too easily to faulty specifications and unrealistic schedules.

I don't doubt that the weapon has problems, but I doubt whether this is a fair analysis of what actually caused them. Keep in mind that since 1985 when this business began, Britain has been mostly under a Labour government, which is never mentioned as bearing any part of the blame for this long-running disaster. Has Tony Blair done everything he can to straighten it out? Or has he merely cut military R&D funding like his pal clinton?

[American Soldier]

What is the deal with putting the magazine to the rear of the pistol grip? It seems to me that would be the worst thing about this rifle. Does that actually work in combat? It seems awkward to me. Why aren't any other rifles made this way?

[Noumenon]

"It would jam, and bits would fall off."

Reminds me of my college days Austin bugeye Sprite. Got oh, say, about 20 miles per quart of oil. Electrics by the Prince of Darkness - Lucas. The hood had the endearing trait of sliding right off the car if you came to too sudden a stop. This provided endless entertainment at busy intersections.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Is his what's called 'bull pup" design ?

[Eric in the Ozarks]

The last Limey I owned was a 72 Norton 850. It shook so hard at idle that various pieces would loosen and come off...like the carburetors. The valve stem seals had failed to the point that, at cold start-up, engine oil would shoot out of both exhaust pipes and cover the turn signals.

[antidisestablishment]

Sounds very similar to the AR15/M16 introduction. The M16 was summarily dismissed by most of the brass (despite its huge approval in ops field tests) and forced to undergo many changes that actually decreased reliability and increased productions costs. It took years of refinements to overcome many of the initial problems.

Military weapon acquisitions, logistics and development are always a labyrinth of Machiavellian politics. The truly amazing thing is that anything every gets out alive.

[fourdeuce82d]

"Why aren't any other rifles made this way?"

Some are- STEYR AUG, and the French FA MAS, both in 5.56.

The idea is to minimize the length of the weapon, whilst retaining a reasonably long barrel for velocity/accuracy.

[Fixit]

The Austrian Steyr Aug, French FAMAS and Bushmaster 17 share a similar bullpup design.

The design aim is to shorten the overall length of the weapon, improving its handling and balance.

[donozark]

Ex had a TR-6 and earlier model TR-3? Anyway, oil filter had to be placed inside a can, rubber seal/gasket placed on opening then one had to shove this contraption down through a tiny space, being careful not to misalign gasket while threading in place. If not done exactly ride? Oil would pour out.

Perhaps the same idiot that designed this went to work for firearms industry after TR went out?

[Fixit]

The author also seems to spend a bit of time denigrating America, perhaps trying to blame the U.S. for this fiasco.

 

[jordan8]

The British have not excelled at designing small arms since the muzzle-loading era, and most of their small arms over the last 150 years have been foreign designs which they somewhat modify and then slap a British name on. The Snider was an American design, the Martini-Henry Swiss-American, the Lee-Enfield was American, the SLR was Belgian, the BREN was Czech, the original British machine gun was the American designed Maxim, which was later somewhat modified and renamed the All-British Vickers, British aircraft of WW2 used the Browning (which the British assure us was so redesigned as to be really a British gun, Old Chap) and later they adopted the Belgian MAG-58. These were all good choices. The real problem here, however, is not American interference, privatisation, of lack of engineering skill, it is a disconnect between the designers and manufacturers on one hand, and the users on the other. The modern peacetime British army leadership has lost the gun knowledge the old-timers had, both military and hunting. The makers and army bureacrats simply didn't know enough about modern small arms to know what was desirable and what was wrong, and didn't care to find out (if they did they never would have used the AR-18 as a starting point). Small arms are simple machines and it doesn't take much engineering skill to design one. They will probably adopt the unproven HK G-36 now, since H+K is now British owned and this will no doubt be an improvement over the SA-80. I would suggest they replace the SA-85 with the 5.56 version of the South African SS-77 machine gun. In fact the U.S. should take a strong look at both the 7.62 and the 5.56 versions of the SS-77.

[jdege]

The modern peacetime British army leadership has lost the gun knowledge the old-timers had, both military and hunting.

That is the crux of it, IMO.

It takes a certain degree of expertise to successfully contract out a project. If you don't have it, the project will fail, no matter how good the people you contract.

[tacticalogic]

72 Norton 850

Hail Lucas, Prince of Darkness!

[tacticalogic]

I had a Triumph Trident. 3 cylinder, 3 coils, 3 sets of points, all timed independently. Kickstart only. If the timing wasn't spot-on it would try to break your leg.