Wars of Nerves *gun grabber alert*

ny times ^ | October 13, 2002 | By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

[tpaine]

I see you've turned into roscoe, sappy 'stalker' accuser.

I don't 'stalk' you roscoe. -- It's my duty to counter your anti-constitutional efforts on FR. You have your assignment, I have my pledge to protect & defend.

[Roscoe]

deliberately misquoted

False. Exact quote.

[tpaine]

False says roscoe, false, false, false.
- Pitiful pitter-patter.

[Virginia-American]

I wonder if GWB would ever have the cojones to call out the unorganized militia ...

He should have declared that every airline flight was a mustering of the militia, that if you don't have a gun with you, you can't board.

Sigh

[Dick Bachert]

Isn't "Friedman" -- er -- Jewish?

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[Whilom]

Like most Socialists (and Liberal Democrats), you keep painting yourself into a corner. When flushed out, you merely paint yourself into another corner. I'll keep flushing because it's important to reiterate that Socialists get on FR and pretend to be libertarians in order to sow discord and disinformation. We can soon spot them for what they are, though, when they start preaching about how conservative it is to legalize marijuana and how they'll decide for the rest of us what the Constitution really says.

[tpaine]

How weird.
-- You claim that the USSC can prohibit guns, and when I protest, you call me a socialist.
You are very confused about our constitution, and about my politics.
You claimed:

"The Supreme Court can decide that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms only as part of the militia; in other words, the judges decide what the Constitution means. Further, the Constitution provides a way for the Constitution itself to be changed by amendment. A constitutional amendment through the elected (where numbers count) Congress and a vote of 3/4 of the states or through a Constitutional Convention (membership appointed by the state legislatures, where numbers count) could remove the Second Amendment and replace it with "no citizen has the right to keep or bear arms." That would be devastating, but it still would be "legal" and within our constitutional process." - whilom

[Whilom]

You are very confused about our constitution, and about my politics.

You've already painted yourself into that corner twice. And I'm still clear about our Constitution -- and your politics.

[tpaine]

You are very confused about our constitution, and about 'painted corners'.
You claimed:

"The Supreme Court can decide that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms only as part of the militia; in other words, the judges decide what the Constitution means. Further, the Constitution provides a way for the Constitution itself to be changed by amendment. A constitutional amendment through the elected (where numbers count) Congress and a vote of 3/4 of the states or through a Constitutional Convention (membership appointed by the state legislatures, where numbers count) could remove the Second Amendment and replace it with "no citizen has the right to keep or bear arms." That would be devastating, but it still would be "legal" and within our constitutional process." - whilom

[Whilom]

You're misinformed, ill-informed, and probably chloroformed.

[tpaine]

"The Supreme Court can decide that citizens have the right to keep and bear arms only as part of the militia; in other words, the judges decide what the Constitution means."


Misinformed? -- The above is MORE than 'misinformed', it is sheer autocratic idiocy from an erstwhile supporter of a free republic. - It violates every precept of our inalienable individual rights.

[tpaine]

Marshall, from Marbury v Madison seems to think that a constitutional principle, if it is deemed 'fundamental' enough, is 'designed to be permanent'.

- Individual rights to life, liberty and property seem pretty fundamental to me.
If they were violated by amendment, would not the constitutional contract be void?

Marshall:

"The question, whether an act, repugnant to the constitution, can become the law of the land, is a question deeply interesting to the United States; but happily, not of an intricacy proportioned to its interest. It seems only necessary to recognize certain principles, supposed to have been long and well established, to decide it."
"That the people have an original right to establish, for their future govern-ment, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected. The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it, nor ought it, to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established, are deemed fundamental. And as the authority from which they proceed is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent."

[Whilom]

Which institution is the final arbiter on whether or not a legislative act -- national, state or local -- is constitutional? Which institution is the final arbiter on what any constitutional provision means?

[Whilom]

Whether or not "it" violates every precept of what you, or any individual, deems his "inalienable individual rights," the final arbiter on what the Constitution, and any of its provisions, means is the Supreme Court, qualified only by the power of citizens in the admendment process -- either through the Congress and State Legislatures or through a called Constitutional Convention. You and I may disagree with any particular Supreme Court ruling but it's view becomes law of the land, not yours, not mine.

[tpaine]

"Which institution is the final arbiter on what any constitutional provision means?"

Justice Marshall:
the people have an original right to establish, for their future govern-ment, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected. The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it, nor ought it, to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established, are deemed fundamental. And as the authority from which they proceed is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent."

IE - The people have established that their right to bear arms shall not be infringed.
-- No 'institution' is authorised to 'arbite', - judge, - that such a fundamental inalienable right can be prohibited or amended.

Why do you advocate that these institutions have such powers to abridge your own liberty? It violates self interest & common sense.

[Whilom]

Why do you advocate that these institutions have such powers to abridge your own liberty? It violates self interest & common sense.

Far from it. Tell the court, any court, that John Marshall says that any law you don't like you can violate with impunity by declaring that it does not fit your view of the Constitution. That question has been settled even for folks who deny it. We have a chosen system for defining what the Constitution means, and we'll defend it with the majesty of the law against those whose unlawful conduct declares that the Constitution means whatever they, as individuals, say it means.

[tpaine]

"Which institution is the final arbiter on what any constitutional provision means?"

Answered by Justice Marshall:
-- "The people have an original right to establish, for their future govern-ment, such principles as, in their opinion, shall most conduce to their own happiness, is the basis on which the whole American fabric has been erected. The exercise of this original right is a very great exertion; nor can it, nor ought it, to be frequently repeated. The principles, therefore, so established, are deemed fundamental. And as the authority from which they proceed is supreme, and can seldom act, they are designed to be permanent."

IE - The people have established that their right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

-- No 'institution' is authorised to 'arbite', - judge, - that such a fundamental inalienable right can be prohibited or amended.

Why do you advocate that these institutions have such powers to abridge your own liberty? It violates self interest & common sense. - 95

Far from it. Tell the court, any court, that John Marshall says that any law you don't like you can violate with impunity by declaring that it does not fit your view of the Constitution.

Marshall doesn't say that, nor do I. That's not the issue here.
You claim that courts can establish principles. They can not, as is outlined by Marshall.

That question has been settled even for folks who deny it. We have a chosen system for defining what the Constitution means, and we'll defend it with the majesty of the law against those whose unlawful conduct declares that the Constitution means whatever they, as individuals, say it means.

The 2nd amendment is a basic, fundamental principle. It cannot be infringed upon by USSC decisions, or by amendments. It is a permanent liberty, an inseparable part of our free republic. If it is substantially violated, our constitutional contract will be broken.

Your insistence that the 2nd can be amended is against all reason.