Posted on 09/14/2002 5:32:18 AM PDT by Boonie Rat
"Congress is charged with deciding if our nation should go to war. There is no provision for delegating the power to make war to the Executive. War is a legislative decision."
To: exodus; jwalsh07
"...Why don't you read the War Powers Act ... before you go making asinine statements with zero basis in truth..."
# 213 by Luis Gonzalez
I've already read the War Powers Act, and it doesn't say what you think it says.
It DOES NOT give the President power to wage war as he sees fit.
It is a LIMITATION on the war powers already usurped by Presidential officeholders since WW 2. It passed over the veto of President Nixon, and has been disregarded by every President since it's passage, including both Presidents Bush.
The President is limited to 8 months of un-sanctioned military action, and then, "...the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces..." [SEC. 5. (b)]
We have been bombing the nation of Iraq for years, without a Declaration of War, and without the specific authorization of Congess, as required by the War Powers Act.
President Bush, like President Clinton before him, has violated the War Powers Act.
"It passed over the veto of President Nixon, and has been disregarded by every President since it's passage, including both Presidents Bush."
"In the past 20 years, war powers and the War Powers Resolution have been an issue in U.S. military actions in Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Central America, and Europe. Presidents have submitted nearly 50 reports to Congress under the War Powers Resolution, although only one (the Mayaguez situation) cited Section 4(a)(1) or specifically stated that forces had been introduced into hostilities or imminent hostilities. Congress invoked the War Powers Resolution in the Multinational Force in Lebanon Resolution (P.L. 98-119), which authorized the Marines to remain in Lebanon for 18 months. In addition, P.L. 102-1, authorizing the use of U.S. armed forces concerning the Iraqi aggression against Kuwait, stated that it constituted specific statutory authorization within the meaning of the War Powers Resolution. On November 9, 1993, the House used a section of the War Powers Resolution to state that U.S. forces should be withdrawn from Somalia by March 31, 1994; Congress had already taken this action in appropriations."
Answer the telephone, your proctologist is calling again.
Common law is the voice of sovereign citizens.*************************
To: exodus
Representative government.
# 220 by Roscoe
Our representatives are not our voice, Roscoe. We pick the man who most closely holds our values, and then we turn him loose to do his best.
Representatives vote their conscience, not ours.
The common law power of the jury is the citizen's direct voice, and is the final check on any abusive laws passed by our representatives.
Now you know what I think?
Amuse me, tell me what I'm thinking right now.
Tell me the last time Congress authorized military action in Iraq.
"I've already read the War Powers Act, and it doesn't say what you think it says."*************************
To: exodus
Now you know what I think?
Amuse me, tell me what I'm thinking right now.
# 224 by Luis Gonzalez
I DO know what you're thinking, Luis.
You're thinking, O.
Just like always,
(sung to the tune of "On Top of the World of Living")
"Not a thought in your head
Not a doubt in your mind
Just following along with the crowd..."
OK...but most adukts actually do their own homework.
Now, this is a long post, so get a glass of water, and you may want to got pee before you start reading.
During the week of October 3, 1994, Iraq began sending two additional divisions to join regular forces in southern Iraq, close to the border of Kuwait. On October 8 President Clinton responded by sending about 30,000 additional U.S. forces and additional combat planes to join the forces already in the Gulf area. He said the United States would honor its commitment to defend Kuwait and enforce U.N. resolutions on Iraq. Congress recessed on October 8 until November 29, 1994, so it did not discuss the issue of congressional authorization. On October 28 President Clinton reported to Congress that by October 15 there were clear indications that Iraq had redeployed its forces to their original location. On November 7 the Defense Department announced 7,000 of the U.S. forces would be withdrawn before Christmas.
Earlier, three continuing situations in Iraq since the end of Desert Storm have brought about the use of U.S. forces and thus raised war powers issues. The first situation resulted from the Iraqi government's repression of Kurdish and Shi'ite groups. U.N. Security Council Resolution 688 of April 5, 1991, condemned the repression of the Iraqi civilian population and appealed for contributions to humanitarian relief efforts. On May 17, 1991, President Bush reported to Congress that the Iraqi repression of the Kurdish people had necessitated a limited introduction of U.S. forces into northern Iraq for emergency relief purposes. On July 16, 1991, he reported that U.S. forces had withdrawn from northern Iraq but that the U.S. remained prepared to take appropriate steps as the situation required and that, to this end, an appropriate level of forces would be maintained in the region for "as long as required."
A second situation stemmed from the U.N. cease-fire resolution of April 3, 1991, Security Council Resolution 687, which called for Iraq to accept the destruction or removal of chemical and biological weapons and international control of its nuclear materials. On September 16, 1991, President Bush reported to Congress that Iraq continued to deny inspection teams access to weapons facilities and that this violated the requirements of Resolution 687. On July 16, 1992, President Bush reported particular concern about the refusal of Iraqi authorities to grant U.N. inspectors access to the Agricultural Ministry. The President consulted congressional leaders July 27, and in early August the U.S. began a series of military exercises to take 5,000 U.S. troops to Kuwait. On September 16, 1992, the President reported, "We will remain prepared to use all necessary means, in accordance with U.N. Security Council resolutions, to assist the U.N. in removing the threat posed by Iraq's chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons capability."
On June 6, 1994, President Clinton reported that the International Atomic Energy Agency had effectively disbanded the Iraqi nuclear weapons program at least for the near term, and that the U.N. Special Commission on Iraq had reduced Iraq's ability to produce chemical weapons. But, he said, the process was not complete and continued vigilance was necessary because of the belief that Saddam Hussein was committed to rebuilding his weapons of mass destruction programs. The United States would insist on a "sustained period of complete and unquestionable compliance with the monitoring and verification plans."
The third situation was related to both of the earlier ones. On August 26, 1992, the United States, Britain, and France began a "no-fly" zone, banning Iraqi fixed wing and helicopter flights south of the 32nd parallel and creating a limited security zone in the south, where Shi'ite groups are concentrated. After violations of the no-fly zones and various other actions by Iraq, on January 13, 1993, the Bush Administration announced that aircraft from the United States and coalition partners had attacked missile bases in southern Iraq and that the United States was deploying a battalion task force to Kuwait to underline the U.S. continuing commitment to Kuwait's independence. On January 6, 1993, the United States gave Iraq an ultimatum to remove newly deployed missiles in the no-fly zone. On January 19, 1993, President Bush reported to Congress that U.S. aircraft on December 27, 1992, had shot down an Iraqi aircraft that had entered the no-fly zone and had undertaken further military actions on January 13, 17, and 18.
President Clinton said on January 21, 1993, that the United States would adhere to the policy toward Iraq set by the Bush Administration, and on January 22, 23, April 9 and 18, June 19, and August 19, 1993, U.S. aircraft fired at targets in Iraq after pilots sensed Iraqi radar or anti-aircraft fire directed at them. Approximately 20 such incidents have occurred while planes patrolled the no-fly zone. On September 23, 1993, President Clinton reported that since the August 19 action, the Iraqi installation fired upon had not displayed hostile intentions. On June 6, 1994, President Clinton reported that over the last 2 years, the northern no-fly zone had deterred Iraq from a military offensive in the northern zone, although tragically on April 14, 1994, two U.S. jets patrolling northern Iraq mistakenly shot down two U.S. helicopters in the area. Iraqi forces had responded to the no-fly zone in the south, he reported, by continuing to use land-based artillery to shell marsh villages. In addition, Iraq was conducting a large search and destroy operation and razing and burning marsh villages, in violation of U.N. Security Council Resolution 688. Until Iraq fully complied with all relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions, he reported, the United States would maintain sanctions and other measures designed to achieve compliance.
A war powers issue is whether the use of U.S. force in post-war Iraq has been authorized by Congress. P.L. 102-1 authorized the President to use U.S. armed forces pursuant to U.N. Security Council Resolution 678 to achieve implementation of previous Security Council Resolutions; Security Council Resolution 687 was adopted after this. August 2, 1991, the Senate adopted an amendment to the Defense Authorization bill supporting the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of Resolution 687. Senator Dole said the amendment was not intended to authorize the use of force by the President, and that in his view in the current circumstances the President required no specific authorization from Congress. As enacted, Section 1095 of P.L.102-190 states the sense of Congress that it supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution. The bill also included an amendment by Senator Pell supporting the use of all necessary means to protect Iraq's Kurdish minority, consistent with relevant U.N. resolutions and authorities contained in P.L. 102-1. (Section 1096 of P.L. 102-190.) In 1994, Congress reaffirmed support for the protection of all Iraqi Kurdish and other minorities pursuant to Security Council Resolution 688 (Section 507 of P.L. 103-482).
In addition to these continuing situations, on June 28, 1993, President Clinton reported to Congress that on June 26 U.S. naval forces had launched a Tomahawk cruise missile strike on the Iraqi Intelligence Service's main command and control complex in Baghdad and that the military action was completed. He said the Iraqi Intelligence Service had planned the failed attempt to assassinate former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait in April 1993. Except for this report of June 28, 1993, Presidents Bush and Clinton did not cite the War Powers Resolution in the above reports. They submitted them "consistent with" P.L. 102-1, which requires the President to submit a report to the Congress at least once every 60 days on the status of efforts to obtain compliance by Iraq with the U.N. Security Council resolution adopted in response to the Iraq aggression. However, the reports were submitted to the required recipients of reports under the War Powers Resolution, and P.L. 102-1 stated it was the specific statutory authorization required under the Resolution. (For further information, see CRS Issue Brief 92117, Iraqi Compliance with Cease-Fire Agreements.)
Tell me the last time Congress authorized our current President Bush to continue military operations in Afganistan. Tell me the last time Congress authorized military action in Iraq.*************************
To: exodus
Gulf War, Phase Two, dolt!
# 226 by MHGinTN
I'm with you, captain!!
But before we go, could you show me our Congressional authorization?
Just for form's sake, you know.
BTW, Congress approved the use of the military in Afghanistan.
They have yet to withdraw that approval, so your question is irrelevant.
Too many Libertarians are blind to both morality and reality. They have become lost in ideals and have locked themselves away from the real world. They set themselves up in a maddening situation in which they (a)hate the world they live in and (b)are unwilling to take any practical steps to improve the situation.
It's almost like arguing with a sociopath. You may as well save your breath. I don't even try anymore.
The War Powers Resolution states that the President's powers as Commander-in-Chief to introduce U.S. forces into hostilities or imminent hostilities are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war; (2) specific statutory authorization; or (3) a national emergency created by an attack on the United States or its forces.
It requires the President in every possible instance to consult with Congress before introducing American armed forces into hostilities or imminent hostilities unless there has been a declaration of war or other specific congressional authorization.
Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
the third day of January, two thousand and one
Joint Resolution
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.
Whereas, on September 11, 2001, acts of treacherous violence were committed against the United States and its citizens; and
Whereas, such acts render it both necessary and appropriate that the United States exercise its rights to self-defense and to protect United States citizens both at home and abroad; and
Whereas, in light of the threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States posed by these grave acts of violence; and
Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and
Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it
Speaker of the House of Representatives.
Vice President of the United States and
President of the Senate.
And what makes it more sick is that they do so while claiming to be defending freedom and liberty.
"Tell me the last time Congress authorized military action in Iraq."*************************
To: exodus
"OK...but most adults actually do their own homework..."
# 228 by Luis Gonzalez
Okay, I TOLD you that President Bush Sr., President Clinton, AND President W. Bush violated the provisions of the War Powers Act. You said they didn't.
I asked you to "Tell me the last time Congress authorized military action in Iraq."
You respond with an article saying that all three Presidents co-operated with the United Nations, that Congress didn't think that the President needed permision to use the military in Iraq, that the three Presidents complied with P.L. 102, and that neither Bush OR Clinton complied with the War Powers Act.
If your article reflects the truth, our last three Presidents have violated the provisions of the War Powers Act.
Just as I said.
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