Posted on 09/11/2002 5:32:02 AM PDT by Pern
I believe the rich man was in hell, wasn't he? And we know that because God tells us that in the story.
Nobody here is saying that people in hell can get saved later, or that people, after they die, get a second chance.
Those strawmen are easy to conceive of and easy to defeat.
He set up a salvation plan for a reason. We must believe NOW. If everyone relied on the maybe of a second chance, what would that do to our witness here? Do you feel comfortable suggesting to people that there might be a chance for them later, especially if someone prays on their behalf? Is that what scripture really teaches?
Who said anything about a second chance? What we are discussing is the possibilty that someone could repent at the last minute. Could it have happened to someone engaged in a horrible crime? Could it? Would God accept the repentence of someone who truly was sorry?
I think we all bank on that fact, that no matter what we have done, God will accept us if we are truly repentent.
Now, since you yourself seem to understand God not operating in time, follow the idea out there. Don't be afraid.
It means that, inasmuch as prayer for each other helps, we may pray for another to acheive that moment of repentence, and to be accepted by God. And get this! Since we do not know if someone accepts God at the end, we can not discount the idea that maybe they did repent. And since God is outside of time, we may pray even after the subject of our prayers is dead. Not that they find repentence "now," but that they had found repentence "then," before they died.
Terribly complicated, I know, and it is much easier to just damn everyone to hell, but the implications of God being outside of time are there. Don't be afraid.
SD
Well, Rebelbase, believe it or not I'm glad to have had this discussion. The gears in my brain get rusty and I like to think about what I believe and why, and you've made me seek out a lot of things I only half-remembered.
Do you agree that our dispute is on whether the Bible is the only teaching authority Jesus (or really, the Holy Spirit)left on earth, and which set of authorities we feel is best suited to help us understand it? As you probably can guess, I believe the Church is a teaching authority too, and I doubt we'll mend fences over that one. Still, I hope we can still stand shoulder to shoulder on a lot of issues confronting us in the modern world.
Best wishes and sincere respect for the ardour of your faith,
'Glum
I was seriously disappointed by the Pope when he basically looked the other way in not more seriously condemning the priestly sexual predators. Now he wants to look the other way on pagans who plan to kill us.
Perhaps it is time for JPII to say, "Ciao."
And when exactly did you get the power to know infallbily who is "damned" and "hardened?" And do you do children's parties?
SD
Pure Capitalism, like an other "ism" is incomplete and incorrect. You realize pure Capitalism is simply utilitarian? There is no value to those who can not produce.
Also, Socialism has been declared incompatible with Christianity. So don't try to make it seem like somethign it isn't.
SD
Your Bible must be missing John 11:41-44.
I do understand the point you are trying to make but I don't believe it is a valid one, simply because of what I already stated. Despite the fact that God exists out of time and is not bound by its constraints, WE exist IN it and ARE bound by them. Our prayers are unproductive if the subject of them is already dead because WE are dealing with the past tense.
So is the dead person - and this is more important - his life is OVER, and his chance GONE. If we say "I pray that he found repentence before he died," then that is valid, but only in the realm of hoping, not for effecting change.
Why?? The authors of this attack belong in Hell. Why sully Heaven with their presence? Evil belongs in its rightful place.
Well, they're dead. Umm, I think it's too late for God to show His mercy on them. Once you're dead, that's it. You have made the choice. He was available to them their whole life. I think the Pope is getting his timing mixed up.
The Pope is Catholic. Catholics believe that you go to Purgatory when you die, not directly to Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is the place where you pay for your sins. Once you've suffered for your sins, then you are worthy to enter Heaven.
Who am I to judge the Pope? MY question to you sinkspur is, what do YOU think God's answer is? God IS just and I think I know the answer and I think you do too.
That passage can't be applied to what we were discussing because Jesus was not praying for Lazarus' soul, that he might find salvation after death, or a quick exit from purgatory. Besides, Jesus didn't pray for Lazarus specifically at all. He prayed that what He was about to do would reveal Himself to those around Him.
I assume he means the masterminds. Not the 19 who died on the planes, unless he thinks that they might be only in purgatory.
This is fine with me. I would be tickled pink if they would repent of their rejection of Christ and be saved. Ultimate vengeance is God's department, not mine.
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