Congress May Bear Brunt of H-1B Anger -- Grass-roots objections to visa program

Computerworld ^ | August, 19, 2002 | Patrick Thibodeau

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Totally believable, bogus advertising to "fool" Congress. Not that Booby Hatch needs fooling. I'm sure the corporations have enrichened his campaign coffers substantially, just like Spencer Abraham's was. The newspapers make their share of money as well, which explains their silence.

[WRhine]

Under pressure from high-tech lobbying, Congress raised the cap from 115,000 to 195,000 in fiscal 2000. It will remain at 195,000 during 2003 but is slated to be cut to 65,000 in 2004.

Thanks for the ping grlfrnd. Anyone wanna bet h1b visas will be cut to 65,000 in 2004? This is the usual song and dance from Congress as the tech lobbyists line their pockets.

Long gone are the days when Congress represented the interests of their constituents--the American Citizen. Representation today goes to the highest bidders anywhere around the globe. If Americans lose their jobs to cheap imported labor--tough rocks!

[blueriver]

You can easily spot the fake ads that ask for a laundry list of technolgies/software packages.

I agree that some are very obvious. However, companies know that no one is going to verify that they actually tried to hire an American and so many of the non obvious job ads are also fake.

[RogueIsland]

You can easily spot the fake ads that ask for a laundry list of technolgies/software packages.

One of my favorite examples comes from an MCSD I work with. The interviewer insisted that the candidate have at least 6 years experience with VB 6.0. You mean 6 years with VB? asks the MCSD. No, six years with VB 6.0 specifically. No other version counted. Only problem: VB 6.0 had only been out for a year at that point.

[Looking4Truth]

And that website has a petition that you can print out, sign and send back.

[Lee_Atwater]

I have been in the same situation. Someone contacted me for a contract back in October. They wanted someone with Cold Fusion 5.0 experience, I worked with it up to 4.5. I wasn't able to convince them that there was little difference. They got smart and called back two weeks later, but by that time I was busy with a VB design project. Those stories are numerous. The lesson: tell HR what they want to hear, within reason, of course.

[Red Jones]

A problem I have witnessed personally is that there is no limit to the bad management that H-1B workers will put up with. When management makes disastrous technical decisions that would cause American engineers to mutiny or change jobs, the H-1B people lay low and keep their mouths shut to avoid being sent back to their third-world homelands. This permits the worst managers to flourish unchallenged.

You are sooo absolutely correct in this observation and it is a very important aspect of h1b. Congress has intervened into the labor market in a massive way through h1b because the managerial class asked them to. The managers improve their positions in the power equation regarding the technical people, but in many many cases the company and the economy lose out. Whereas an American software person or engineer would be able to stop the company from making stupid technical decisions the h1b person is not concerned with that. The h1b person just wants to survive the 5 years to become a citizen. They will not rebel when it benefits the company for them to rebel. The culture of the workplace is being changed in a strog-armed manner so that technical people will be 'yes-men'. This does not improve innovation or quality, it makes those things worse instead, much worse. The real reason of course why we even have h1b is that managers have lost respect for technical experts in the first place and don't want to pay them market rates. This negative trend which pre-dates h1b is a very negative trend. It used to be that a technical person could have a good career in engineering and then move into management. This was very very beneficial to many companies. No more. You are in engineering or a technical field and it is like a ghetto, you won't be allowed out. A lot of companies have suffered because of this techno-phobia that is in the managers and a lot more will suffer.

[max epr]

I recommend the book "The Case Against Immigration". It describes the impact on a number of facets of our society/economy and they're all bad.
Ciao,
Max

[Red Jones]

how stupid of me; I meant 975,000.

[Alas Babylon!]

I work at Auburn University as an MCT and MCSE. Everyday, students new and old to various networking jobs ask me what are the opportunities for employment. I'm always looking for job openings from various businesses in the area to place the more promising students. It is absolutely an enormous lie that Americans cannot do EVERY single tech job in this country. I have trained hundreds of people that started out not knowing anything about computers and networking that really learned well, were eager to begin working, and would be fine assets to any high tech company in this country. Why is it so hard for them to get jobs? Why is there even a single H-1B in Alabama when these decent folks can't get a job???? I would like to see the money spent on H-1B go into training for Americans.

Example: Here in Alabama we have an area known as the Black Belt (not a race word, but for the exceptionally good dark soils that fueled the Nation's first cotton boom in the 1840's). Today, the area is one of the most poverty-stricken areas in the country (From Birth, hardships begin assault (Alabama). If just 5 in 100 of these fellow Americans could be trained, there would be no need for H-1B. Maybe I should call Jessee Jackson, LOL!!!

One other problem with H-1B. Have you ever noticed than when layoffs occur in high tech, it's usually men in their 40/50's? Why? Well, the high tech companies say H-1B holders do not make less than anyone else. However, since retirement and health benefits aren't paid to H-1B's like you would with Americans, wouldn't companies find it a hell of a lot cheaper to employ them rather than H-1B's? And who, more than anyone else, is going to cost the companies in terms of retirement and health benefits the most???

American males in their 40's and 50's, that's who.

This program is the biggest shaft the Congress ever stuck up the little guy. Well, there's so many... One of the biggest!!!!! How about we replace Congressmen with foreign workers??? We couldn't do worse, IMO.

[glc1173@aol.com]

Washington is losing its legitimacy in the eyes of the American middle class because of crap like H-1(b) and other immigration sellouts and "free trade" that let Third World nations dump their unemployment and underemployment onto the backs of America's middle-class middle-aged downsized workers and their just-graduated kids.

The same view of Washington as illegitimate long common among slum blacks is now growing fast among middle-class nonminorities for these and other reasons.

[GailA]

There was an article in The Commercial Appeal aka commie appeal (www.gomemphis.com) the other day saying that foreign teachers would have to be hired to fill unfilled teaching post. Wonder what the NEA will do when these foreign teachers drive their wages DOWN like they've driven the wages down in other professions?

[Texas_Jarhead]

This is somewhat off subject but it has been bugging me. I work in the IT sector and order network servers form Dell from time to time. Anway, I had to order some upgrade/expansion components today. Long story short; Dell moved their call center to India and just try to find a contact Phone # or e-mail address of someone in charge @ Dell HQ in Austin. I was on hold for 35 minuted and the phone connection sucked bigtime too. Apparently the people working the call center have been told to lie if asked where they are located. I called yesterday to get pricing. I asked where the call center was located and the sales rep told me Austin. WHen I called back today I asked when the call center was moved and this time the guy just laughed and said about 3 months ago. It really ticks me off that they tossed the Americans aside like that. While looking for contact information so I could inquire/complain I came across Dell's press releases. Of course, none existed relating to the call center move.

[SR71A]

I have trained hundreds of people that started out not knowing anything about computers and networking that really learned well, were eager to begin working, and would be fine assets to any high tech company in this country. Why is it so hard for them to get jobs? Why is there even a single H-1B in Alabama when these decent folks can't get a job???? I would like to see the money spent on H-1B go into training for Americans.

It is hard for them because HR people are drilled to specify experience in a given technology, not just training. So, until your graduates get some actual work experience, they're out of luck. Catch-22 time. They can't get experience if they don't get hired in the first place. But of course, "miraculously", those HR people will find dozens of candidates with "experience" in Bangalore or Beijing.

Each H1-B visa costs a company about $1500. Part of that fee, by law, is supposed to be used to train American workers, so that dependence on H1-Bs can be reduced. But, because of what I pointed out, the Administration wants to redirect that portion of the application fee to improving the H1-B visa approval process. The retraining of American workers is failing because the Bush Administration and industry wants it to fail.

[Red Jones]

another aspect of h1b that is also pernicious is that the recruiters in india who send resumes out to the companies to look at are apparently in the habit of lying on the resumes. They take someone they know from school or experience has smarts and some skills, then they exaggerate the number of languages, etc. and things on the resumes to sell him. congress did an investigation and the investigation concluded this. The h1b people are frequently just as un-tested as americans looking for opportunity, but they have that resume made by a 'recuiter'. Are you going to call Hyderbad to check references? No, you trust a recruiter and the recruiters lie. But the companies don't care. It is cheapest way to hire somebody who 90% chance won't want to lose that job for anyting for 5 years.

As I made clear also, they don't even pay social security taxes, a loss of over 5 billion a year to the federal government.

I bet there's a technical institute in hyderbad or bangalore that graduates a higher percentage of its people into real careers in the US than many american training facilities. Our government calls this good policy.

The guys that built the Apollo program, the guys that worked for NASA, what nationality were those guys? They were american. the vast majority of all worthwhile technical innovations and advancements on a worldwide basis were made in america for the last 300 years.

They are already bringing in small numbers of doctors, nurses and teachers because allegedly americans can't do that work any more either. The medical industry is in absolute crisis, it needs relief from tort laws and from government bureaucracy and tightwad insurance companies. Government today ignores all ideas for reform that would help. But when crisis hits the medical industry, it will be doctors whom they will undercut. An h1b program for doctors could cut doctor's costs by 30-40% over 10 years.

All these industries are screwed up and need foreign help because of the failures of management. In the medical industry it is the government rules that dictate every problem. In the school it is the education bureaucracy which both screens out and destroys good teachers. In the IT world it is a failure to put the talented techies into managerial positions that costs them dearly, more so than anything. In each case, the failure in management occurs and laws are made to compensate for the failure, but the managers themselves are protected from the consequences of their failure.

[blueriver]

The retraining of American workers is failing because the Bush Administration and industry wants it to fail.

In my area the colleges received an H-1B grant and I attended the information session on what was available. First the grant money goes to the colleges, who in turn use the money to organize a class or two. The fee for the class is still charged. No class on the latest technology was offered. Only options - some Cisco certification classes and some bio factory work training. It is no wonder these programs are not successful. It is a complete rip off, the only one who benefits from it monetarily are the grant recipients, to them it is a windfall of money.

[blueriver]

But when crisis hits the medical industry, it will be doctors whom they will undercut. An h1b program for doctors could cut doctor's costs by 30-40% over 10 years.

Do you think the AMA will allow this? The AMA has a lot of power in this country. They have made it virtually impossible for most people to get into medical school, thereby artificially creating a low supply of doctors in this country which in turn allows most doctors to enjoy a wealthy lifestyle and a guaranteed job for life. If anything doctors should have been the first targeted profession of the H-1B visa sham. So my bet is that the H-1B crap will only happen to the professions that have no political power. By the way there is currently a waiting list to get into law school in this country. At the same time Engineering schools are seeing a serious decline in enrollment. Gee could it be that the word on the street is out...

[Alas Babylon!]

It is hard for them because HR people are drilled to specify experience in a given technology, not just training. So, until your graduates get some actual work experience, they're out of luck. Catch-22 time. They can't get experience if they don't get hired in the first place.

True! That's why I encourage them to take entry-level positions. They hear the hype about how an MCSE or other certification is going to get them big $$$, but that takes certification AND experience. I hate to burst their balloons, but it's true.

Still, it's a crying shame that companies are going overseas for workers when we have so many unemployed here. BTW, my students are not college kids, many, no, most, are older folks changing careers. Some do have computer experience, and are retraining to specifically get the certification to go along with their experience and skills. Even these folks, especially if they're in their 40's or 50's, have trouble finding work. Meanwhile, Chinese or Pakistanis are getting, IMHO, their jobs.

[bandlength]

try getting any tech support rep that doesn't have a name spelled like a scrambled eye chart! it takes so long for them to respond on a live tech chat session that you could go grocery shopping and come back w/o receiving an answer (on broadband). it's painfully obvious that these "customer service reps" have no command of the english language. . .

[bandlength]

let me know what you think. . .

i'm in my early forties and have changed careers to tech in the last couple of years. (i used to be an office worker in a gov't. agency until i could no longer stand the fraud; they blackballed me for two years during the "good" economy, which forced me to change careers in the first place).

i was on a help desk as a contract for a major company for 18 mos. i'm now unpaid interning in a small pc repair shop/ISP and absolutely loving it. so your advice to me would be to switch back to office work as there is no job potential until i retire? (retirement=read: 85 years old at the local walmart)