Police union knows what went wrong, how to fix it

Houston Chronicle ^ | August 25, 2002 | HANS MARTICIUC

[Dog Gone]

For instance, I submit to you that the real problem last weekend was manifested in the fact that HPD patrol divisions are short-staffed.

Yeah, that's it, Hans. The problem was that there weren't enough cops, so you had to resort to flagrant unconstitional and illegal acts.

[tallhappy]

Ever hear that expression about a stuck pig.

How 'bout about molehills and mountains?

You know, a much greater threat to our freedoms comes from people who cry wolf.

When real things happen, no one believes it because of drama queens like you.

[Larry Lucido]

Along with better staffing, HPD needs to assist businesses along the troubled Westheimer area -- which has a long history of night-time crowding dilemmas -- with strategic planning that would better deal with masses that congregate.

How about this: Businesses that close at night can rope off their parking lots and prominently place "No Trespassing" signs all over. Then, anyone entering would be doing so unlawfully, and an arrest or citation would be appropriate.

24 hour or late-night businesses, who have to provide access and can't just arbitrarily excude patrons, can hire Pinkerton security guards to enforce access to paying customers only, and exclude everyone else. Then, you only call the Houston PD on an as-needed basis.

Free market solutions can address all sorts of problems.

[tallhappy]

Then, anyone entering would be doing so unlawfully

That's a good one. Next time a burgler is caught in your house, he can say there was no sign up saying he couldn't go in -- so obviously with no sign, he didn't enter illegally?

[Grut]

Have you ever noticed how, in their clannishness, sullen resentment of outsiders and sense of privileged victimhood, police resemble nothing so much as ghetto youth?

[sawsalimb]

Nope. There's a big difference between a residence,and a commercial establishment. I believe that the courts would probably hold that a commercial establishment that had the lights on at midnight,and an "Open for Business" sign flashing in the wndow could be construed as inviting customers,or potential customers to come spend money. That's a little different from a residence,with the lights off and the door locked. I believe the key distinction is the invitation.

[Dog Gone]

Yes, what a silly thing I'm doing by discussing flagrant violations of constitutional rights on this forum. It's been the top story all week in the nation's fourth largest city, but my discussing it is a threat to your freedom.

Every time I think you can't possibly be more of a complete twit, you prove me wrong.

[Larry Lucido]

It's not trespassing to pull into the 24-hour K-Mart parking lot for the 2am blue light specials.

It is trespassing to enter private premises that are clearly restricted by signs, fences, locked gates, etc.

The same applies to your home. It's not trespassing to walk up to your front door and hang a pizza parlor menu on the doorknob. It might, however, be trespassing if there had been a "No Handbills" sign. It would definitely be trespassing to climb throught the window and hand the homeowner the flyer while he is in the bathtub.

[tallhappy]

Yes, number 7 -- the drama queen in her element.

[Dog Gone]

If Kmart thought the crowds were a problem, and there's no evidence yet that they did, they could have hired a rent-a-cop in a golf cart to patrol the parking lot. Most malls in the Houston area already do just that.

If the crowd was causing a problem, the guard could ask them to leave, and if they refused, the police could arrest them for criminal trespass or given them a citation. That would have been legal, and it would have been appropriate. There was nothing legal or appropriate about what happened here.

[Dog Gone]

Nice argument.

[justlurking]

Then, you only call the Houston PD on an as-needed basis.

Unfortunately, that's how K-Mart got sucked into this mess (along with the hot-dog stand that was reported earlier): they asked the HPD for assistance and the HPD responded with a Gestapo-style raid.

The union official makes a big deal about understaffing, but they had something on the order of 50 officers participating in this raid. A half-dozen of them could have handled this problem simply by cruising up and down the strip and stopping to ask large congregations of people to move on.

After a while, the repeat offenders would become obvious. A progression of warnings and tickets for loitering would discourage all but the most hard-core cases. The people that are still hanging around would be candidates for arrest after they have been informed: "the next time I see you, you are going to jail".

[Lion's Cub]

My thoughts exactly, D.G. "Well, heck, we're short-staffed. We don't have enough staff to sort out the good guys from the bad guys. So we'll just arrest everybody..."

[tallhappy]

Nice argument.

It's not an argument, it is an observation.

You'd have to be saying something of substance to engender an argument.

I am actually laughing. I can see you there, tears in your eyes -- crying...emoting..."only I stand between liberty and enslavement..."

Unfortunately there is a serious side to it which is if ever there is a real assault on our liberties (and as they are encroached slowly or gradually) you will deafen people to it with your hysterical drama queen empty posturing on incidents like this.

Go read Little Boy who Cried Wolf again.

[Dog Gone]

I guess this is what we would expect from the head of the Police Union. He's trying to blame management (which is appropriate) and protect the actual officers who made the arrests (less appropriate).

But the hard questions were asked in today's other column in the same paper, Hard questions for mayor, police in K-mart debacle

[Dog Gone]

If I can see past your personal criticisms of me, I think the substance of your argument is that nothing bad happened here worth talking about.

Please explain why.

[tallhappy]

Gestapo?

I see we have another dram queen.

One thing I've noticed about a lot of Americans, usually liberal, is loss of all perspective.

I think it is based on ignorance and immaturity.

Not understanding what the Gestapo were and what they did is a perfect example.

The "civil rights" leaders always bandy about terms like fascist and gestapo. We know why they do. What's your excuse?

Demagoguing is demagoguing.

[Dog Gone]

Check this out. But be prepared to be called a drama queen who is immature and probably a liberal.

[tallhappy]

You fellows are of course right.

The point being still, that there need not always be a sign explicitly stating something.

For example, if a certain person keeps going on your property to "leave a flyer" say. You object and he keeps getting citations from the police but doesn't stop. Eventually he'll get more than a citation.

[isthisnickcool]

Have you ever noticed how, in their clannishness, sullen resentment of outsiders and sense of privileged victimhood, police resemble nothing so much as ghetto youth?

What? Don't know many cops do you? What ghetto do you live in?