Posted on 07/25/2002 5:27:33 PM PDT by RCW2001
Welcome to racial politics. Get used to it. Thanks to immigration, this country is becoming less white.
It figures some people can't get over their prejudices...I say this as a Pro-Isreal, Pro-Netanyahu, Pro-Traficant, Pro-Demanyuk (he wasn't Ivan), anti-McKinney, anti-the house of Saud, Catholic (secret jew, LOL) Repubican from a historically Democrat family.
Now it should be easier for non-Jews to understand. A high percentage of the U.S. Jewish community only sees its Jewishness in the sense of its leftism. This is particularly true among younger Reform Jews - so much so that an Orthodox rabbi said in a Jewish magazine recently that many people gravitate to Reform temples only because they are the "address" (his word) for their politics, not for the religious tenets that Reform Judaism supposedly is.
"Not to quibble, bu the anti-communist left."
That's a small plus, I guess, but I'm not much mollified.
As a member of both the Republican Jewish Coalition and a Reform temple, I am recently finding this matter of Jewish politics very interesting.
If so, that makes them, as I believe, still sympathetic to the "philosophy" if not the fact of communism. After all, they are believers in socialism. Communism does not really differ much from "socialism," as it is, after all, a type of socialism.
Excellent point.
As a member of a Reform temple, I find the issues you raise here fairly compelling, not to say disturbing. I have had some discussion with my rabbi (who is a leftist but a nice guy) on this subject, but usually find that not so many people really want to talk about it. Do you mind if I freepmail you on it?
That's a small plus, I guess, but I'm not much mollified.
It is imnportant. The Forward played a key role in preventing American Labor from going communist in the Cold War and in the creation of anti-communist and pro-independence labour unions in the Warsaw Pact. The Forward and affiliated groups known as "free labor" funded Solidarity.
No, there are plenty of non-communist traditions in the left: Anarchism, Democratic Socialism, and the welfare state.
If so, that makes them, as I believe, still sympathetic to the "philosophy" if not the fact of communism. After all, they are believers in socialism. Communism does not really differ much from "socialism," as it is, after all, a type of socialism.
You should read up on the actual actions of the Communist part and their fronts. They murdered thousands of non-Communist leftists. There is no greater conflict than internicine ones where one side is totalitarian in nature.
It depends on how you define the Israeli right.
It is an amalgamation of Nationalist, Relgious groups, and classical liberals.
The religious parties are not opposed to welfare and the Natioanlist are not liberatarians. However, they take cultural positions far to the right of the GOP.
The Likud Party, the standard-bearer of the right, is free-market.
When judging Israeli politics, you must understand that Israel has been at war for its entire existance and that socialists were in power for the first 30 years.
"You should read up on the actual actions of the Communist part and their fronts. They murdered thousands of non-Communist leftists. There is no greater conflict than internicine ones where one side is totalitarian in nature."
My opinion is that all leftist (socialist) philosophy, if applied, results in a tendency toward totalitarianism or a decrease in individual liberty, which is essentially the same thing. I undersand that many Leftists disagree, while others do agree, but don't make it public, as they wish to reap the rewards of authority. So I would say that there are elements of totalitarianism in any Leftist "side," even if unintentional.
"No, there are plenty of non-communist traditions in the left: Anarchism, Democratic Socialism, and the welfare state."
Nevertheless, there has been and still is considerable sympathy for commmunist regimes in the American Left. Certainly, after Stalin's death, when the truth became public, many Leftists took an anti communist position that they hadn't before.
Regarding Forward, I guess I'm glad to hear that they played a role in preventing unions from going communist during the cold war. But, as they are still actively engaged in the attempt to convert America to a more leftist state, I am unable to summon much admiration for them. Do you know what their position was during the thirties?
"It depends on how you define the Israeli right. "
I don't really define them, however perhaps you could for me, I would take it as a favor. My rabbi once told our congregation, with a smile, that Israel was a socialist state. At the time, that was news to me, but I believe it to be true. In that environment I am pretty unsure of what would be meant by the "Right." If they are anti socialist, then I'm all for them. I've heard Netanyahu speak on the radio a few times and been very favorably impressed.
I'm aware that Israel has been in a "survival" situation for the entire 54 years of its existence though I'm not too sure how that relates to its socialism. I personally despise socialism, yet I find that I am able to hold the highest admiration for Israel, on many levels.
Forgive me for going on so long.
1. Notice that I stated in my post that I was "Not getting into whys and hows, just the sad facts."
2. Notice also that I did not mention W, instead used the general term "Republicans"
Now, let me expand a little...
W is still remarkably well-liked within American Muslim circles. If Muslims feel betrayed it is not by George W, and certainly not merely a matter of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Where the feeling of betrayal comes is the rather harsh attitude of Congressional Republicans, and the language and tone of the mainstream conservative press, which is widely read by the Muslim community. (Remember the Muslim community here in America is not the same as it is in Europe. I would venture to say that Muslim Americans tend to be among the top three ethno/religious minorites when it comes to education and affluence-- behind the Jews and the Japanese)
So, when senior writers in conservative magazines say things like "they put their ethnicity/religion above loyalty to the country". (by the way, does that sound familiar to you Jews?)Or, you hear a thoughtful sounding discussion of the value of nuking of Mecca, Muslim opinion leaders-- the business class, the doctors-- who have long been the vigilant defenders of this community from the infiltration by poverty pimps and racial hucksters of the left, they find themselves very alone.
My personal feeling is that walking away from the political process would be a disaster. It would assure that the country would drift further into greater moral ferment and toward the statist capitalism of Europe. And it would also assure that where we have little say about foreign policy now, our departure from politics would guarantee we will have none.
Now, this is the part where I deconstruct a number of your statements 1. U.S. Muslims mistakenly thought the Dems were soft on Israel and they dreamed that "Bush + Oil = Screw the Jews"?
Unlike many public-school educated Americans today, American Muslims have a sense of history. To them the idealized Republican party is the party of Eisenhower who put America's long term national security and strategic interests ahead of the priorities of any domestic political pressure group.
Eisenhower asked a key question whose answer is self-evident: How does supporting Israel benefit us? American Muslims believed that Bush 41 and Jim Baker shared that view, and believed that the son of Bush would not take policy stances diametrically different than those of his father. We were wrong, but then the Israel-Palestine mess was not and is not the key motivator of the Muslim vote.
2. You feel betrayed by the Republicans who have bent over backwards to avoid saying the obvious, that this is a Holy War between civilizations?
It isn't a holy war between civilizations, it's a war between humanity against a religion created by the House of Saud. It's not the Turks, or the Iranians, or the Bahrainis, or the Paks crashing airplanes into buildings, it's a bunch of guys who owe intellectual alleigance to the Wahabbis of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. My big problem with this war is that we're running around-- sorry have to run 3. 19 guys don't run around for months praying and buying Hallal food and don't get noticed by the American Muslim community. American Muslims not only didn't do anything to stop it, they actively encouraged it.
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