The IDF will equip its troops with the new Tavor assault rifl

IMRA ^ | 7-24-02

[Andy Ross]

I don't think that they have to steal the technology. The Zionist Occupied Government probably just hands it over.

Andrew

[Shooter 2.5]

IMI is a very successful company on it's own. They make the Desert Eagle, Baby Eagle, Jerico and sell ammunition. Do a little research and you'll understand.

[SevenDaysInMay]

California or bust.

[Centurion2000]

Does it come in a left hand model ? This actually looks like a .223 rifle I'd take a chance on.

[Centurion2000]

IMI is a very successful company on it's own. They make the Desert Eagle, Baby Eagle, Jerico and sell ammunition. Do a little research and you'll understand.

Don't forget the BFR (Bigger,Finest, Revolver) .... I have a healthy respect for any revolver that can shoot 45/70 Government.

[archy]

Here is the picture. Another trendy but weird bullpup design. IMI built the Gallil, often considered the Cadillac of AK-47s. This means it may work better than the current Enfield bullpup, which has been plagued by problems from day one. The Styer AUG is probably the best of the bullpup designs currently in service.

My pick would go to the French FAMAS G2. The Steyr has had some problems, particularly in sandy/desert climes, and the difficulties the Australians had with their F88 version, though now largely worked out, are another reason for dropping the AUG a few points.

The French Paras, Foreign Legion and Marsouins have been very happy with their FI versions, known as *Le Clarion* [the bugle] due to its approximate shape, and it's been combat proven in the Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia and Afghanistan...among other things. The primary complaint is that it's a bit unwieldly with an M203 grenade launcher fitted beneath, a trait shared with most other military bullpup rifles, which will likely require a purpose-built or integral UGL design.

The Israeli Tavor, offered to the Serbs and Turks as well, may be the equal of the Clarion, but is probably not significantly *better.* We'll see.

[Jack Black]

The Galil is actually a hybridized AKM, it incorporates elements of Stoners AR15/AR180 also. The AK cadillac is probably the Valmet.

Well the AR15 and AR180 are quite different. The AR-180 is often described as using an "AK-47 style recoil system", meaning a piston as oppposed to the gas tube of the AR-15. Do you know what parts of the Galil are changed. One that is obvious is the folding stock, which is a clone of the FN-FAL PARA folding stock.

I've handled but never shot the Gallil in both .308 and .223 and the workmanship was excellent. I've never handled a Valmet, by I own some other Sako guns and they are super high quality. I believe the Valmet was (is?) built by Sako (which was really just Finnish National Arms in the 70s ... now it's a part of Beretta!)

A few other nominees for Cadallac of AK-47s would be the Robarms imported VEPR. It's built on the thicker RPK machinegun reciever stampings - making it much more rigid, and thus accurate (and heavier) than most other AKs. Mechanisms are identical.

Another might be the Arsenal Arms built SAM-7, built in Nevada using blueprints from Bulgaria! They machine the recievers, unlike almost all other current production AKs which stamp them. Funny to see US high tech know how and expensive forge and machine manufacturing being used to build a rifle that was designed to be stamped out cheaply in 3rd world hell holes. Things really come full circle. Below, SAM-7 Classic

ROBARMS WEB SITE

ARSENAL ARMS WEB SITE

AK-47.NET DISCUSSION BOARD

[Jack Black]

The Baby Eagles are actually made by Tanfoglio, whose guns are sold here under the EAA Witness brand. They may also make the Desert Eagle, I'm not sure.

[VOA]

bump

[68 grunt]

No, as soon as it had something to do with the (U.S. subsidized) Israeli military.

As long as the dough is spent to kill your pali pal's, its money well spent.

[archy]

The Galil is actually a hybridized AKM, it incorporates elements of Stoners AR15/AR180 also. The AK cadillac is probably the Valmet.

Hardly. The AKM utilizes a stamped/pressed receiver; the Galil was not only developed from Finnish Valmet m/62 receivers, but Israel Galili's first prototypes were actually built on Finnish-marked receivers, using American 1:12 twist barrels and Stoner M63 automatic rifle magazines. The milled-receiver rk/62 Valmet's are indeed hell for stout, but have been superseded by the stamped receiver Valmet m/76 more akin to the AKM, though the m/76 has itself been replaced in Finnish military service by the newer rk95TP- which has reverted to a milled receiver again.

The AUG and French FAMAS, along with the SA80, are the only other bullpups adopted by major armies, of the three only the AUG has been successfully exported.

It's unclear how widespread the issue of the new bullpup the Chinese PLA has developed, but it appears to be in the hands of their airborne and Naval Landing Force [Marines] at least. And of course the enormously successful Uzi submachinegun can be considered a bullpup itself.

Interestingly I've heard little about this rifle in the small arms press, it's been developed quietly.

There've been stories in Jane's International Defense Review, Small Arms Review, Gun World, and Soldier of Fortune, at least. Even the SFOR Informer had a short but detailed article on the things.

M4 MWS or SOPMOD is a more flexible choice but perhaps this rifle will be successful.

And hopefully less fragile. Lots of M4 buttstocks breaking off in Israeli service I hear, which leaves the gun unfirable. The Israelis had such difficulties with cut-down M16 carbines being crushed and broken aboard their armoured vehicles that cutdown Galil *Glilon* shorty carbines instead replaced the Uzi as the Israeli tankists' off-vehicle weaponry.

The IDF is generally intolerant of crap, apparently unlike the UK MOD.

The Israelis will certainly use a less than desirable bit of gear until something better comes along, but their real brilliance is in carefully noting intirm fixes and field expedients from their troops in the field, and often adopting those modifications as upgrades service-wide. One thing the Israeli supply and ordnance branches do not have is a *Not invented Here* rejection factor- they happily steal from the best they can find, almost as if their lives depended on doing so....

-archy-/-

[Jack Black]

We're missing another fugly bullpup: the FN-2000. Does any army use this gun? Sad to go from the beauty of the FN-LAR to this ... my grand kids will probably think it's a classic. This pic has the attached grenade launcher. The data sheet proudly notes it has an intergal battery compartment. If that's progress in gun design I guess I'm a retro-grouch.

[rmlew]

Where you not so reflexively anti Isreal, you would understand that the point was that Israel is arming itself WITHOUT US AID!

IMI sells many successful weapons from the Uzi to the Desert Eagle series around the world. Israel has the money.

[xsrdx]

Thanks for the well informed post.

My point on the Galil is that it's not an AK - the gas system and rotating bolt are as closely related to Stoner's design as they are Kalashnikov's, although you could argue the AR180 was an evolved AK.

The Uzi is a subgun and thus not in the same category.

Most M16 Carbines in IDF service are in fact CAR15 variants, not true M4's. The collapsible buttstock design for the M4 has gone through several design evolutions, but they are still fragile compared to fixed or folding stock designs. The most recent "ribbed" buttstocks are pretty durable, although they still utilize the same aluminum recoil spring tube as the previous versions.

Didn't know about the PLA rifle, and now that I've started looking, I've found Tavor articles everywhere. So much for being on top of things.

[archy]

My point on the Galil is that it's not an AK - the gas system and rotating bolt are as closely related to Stoner's design as they are Kalashnikov's, although you could argue the AR180 was an evolved AK.

The Galil is indeed an AK, and shares the gas system and turnbolt locking with the AK and Valmet to such an extent that parts are interchangable between the different weapons. My own Valmet m/62 was eventually rebuilt with Galil parts to Galil specifications, as the barrel threads are identical and the bolt carriers will interchange with their respective 7,62x39 bolt and 5,56mm bolt. One of these days, I'll likely return my Galil to its original chambering, using an extra North Korean AK47 carrier/operating rod, gas piston and bolt assembly I've got leftover from another previous rifle.

The Galil, Valmet and AK all utilize a stud on the bolt to turn the bolt as it reciprocates in the carrier, locking up to the rifle's receiver. The Stoner's bolt also rotates, but instead locks up to an extension of the barrel fitted with recesses for locking multiple bolt lugs, allowing the use of receivers that need not themselves bear the stresses of withstanding barrel locking pressures, allowing light alloy and stamped sheetmetal receivers to be used.

The Uzi is a subgun and thus not in the same category.

Only that its compact design helped pave the way for rifle-caliber bullpups, particularly those from the same source.

Most M16 Carbines in IDF service are in fact CAR15 variants, not true M4's. The collapsible buttstock design for the M4 has gone through several design evolutions, but they are still fragile compared to fixed or folding stock designs. The most recent "ribbed" buttstocks are pretty durable, although they still utilize the same aluminum recoil spring tube as the previous versions.

Most of those in Israeli service that I've fired and handled, of some 200 or so, are rebuilt M16A1 rifle lower receivers, with several variants of replacement carbine upper receivers with shorter [than M16A1 length] barrels. There are some honest-to G_d M4 and M4A1 carbines to be found in Israel, but the 16-inch barreled upper as per the American semiauto *AR-15/ CAR15 sporter* is also very commonly found atop an M16A1 lower.... and they're also sometimes cut down to shorter barrel lengths as well.

Didn't know about the PLA rifle, and now that I've started looking, I've found Tavor articles everywhere. So much for being on top of things.

There will be more to come. And Barrett in Tennessee [the folks who make the M82A1 .50 caliber semiauto rifles] have a *Tavor semi* that they exhibited at the last SHOT show, that they hope to have on the market and in production around the time the *Assault Rifle ban* law sunsets around the end of 2004, though their version appears to be based on Galil internals and components. But it should still be worth a look.

-archy-/-

[archy]

There will be more to come. And Barrett in Tennessee [the folks who make the M82A1 .50 caliber semiauto rifles] have a *Tavor semi* that they exhibited at the last SHOT show, that they hope to have on the market and in production around the time the *Assault Rifle ban* law sunsets around the end of 2004, though their version appears to be based on Galil internals and components. But it should still be worth a look.

<===*click for bigger pic*

Angela Barrett of Barrett Firearms with their new Tavor 21 bullpup in .223. The very well-designed bullpup is fully convertible for left-hand operation and accepts standard AR-15 / M-16 magazines. This extremely handy gun will be available from Barrett in mid-2002.

[xsrdx]

The Galil is indeed an AK, and shares the gas system and turnbolt locking with the AK and Valmet to such an extent that parts are interchangable between the different weapons

That is surprising and doesn't mesh with what I understood to be the case, especially since they (AK vs. Valmet/ARM) will be different calibers.

IIRC, the initial comments made regarding the Galil, when first introduced, made reference to evolved changes to the operating system, inspired by the Stoner designs, in order to enhance lock up and thus accuracy. Galil's use M16 magazines so the geometry has to be slightly different in the lower receiver.

Now I am curious - since building a licensed Valmet in 556 would be cheaper, why bother developing the Galil?

[BenF]

Gee, where do you suppose they got the money for this?

Taxes on the Israeli people.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... In fact, I'll bet if you look into it, the Israelis have manufactured this weapon with AMERICAN technology--possibly stolen."

I'll take that bet. How much are you wagering?