Messianic Jews and Israel

arutzsheva | 5-14-02 | S. Alfassa Marks

[crystalk]

There are also members of the Bahai faith, Mandaeans, Alawites, and other splinter religions who have fled to Israel for refuge, from all over the Islamic world. Surely these too would serve in the IDF, and what about the Armenian Christians, who fled there over a thousand years ago and can still be found there.

Yes, you are surely right in saying that over 200,000 Russian and other FSU nationals are there, who are non-Jews and descended from Christians...my 60M figure meant active believers, not just non-religionists. Also, there have at times been as many as 70,000 Rumanians and other east European non-Jews there as guest-workers, besides a fair number of Filipinos, Thais, and Chinese all of which are fertile ground for the saving of souls, these people all need the Lord Jesus very badly, and they are living in his own land...

But as far as WE are concerned, we are told not to try to live there till those Islamic abominations come down and are leveled, atop the Temple Mount.

THAT is when Western Christians will come in in droves...

[crystalk]

Actually I have been told that, both off the cuff and professionally. One thing I know, Israel and her ways and her language have fascinated me since I was 3 feet tall.

And that was by NO means recently, let me tell you.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I was commenting on Revelation 2:9. But you knew that!

[onedoug]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for posting.

[crystalk]

bttt. Messianic Jews rock. Not those just calling themselves that while being the same as Southern Baptists, though. Real ones.

So much so, that if 20 of such form a congregation (ten being required for a minyan)...immediately 200 Gentile Christians will want to join, and there is danger that the Judaic/Hebraic/Davidian character of worship and joy be lost...

[remaininlight]

Thanks for that. Many Jewish mystics/Kabbalists went along with the idea of reincarnation.

[onedoug]

I've a library book at home written by an Australian rabbi in 1969. Though I can't recall his name, he writes that religion is like a lighthouse along a storm-tossed coast. It can provide the beacon, but all ships must still make port on their own.

I like that way of looking at, and thinking about it.

Everything Good....

[Saundra Duffy]

BUMP for a Messianic Jew FReeper! Adam, is that really you? For victory & freedom!!!

[2sheep]

>I was commenting on Revelation 2:9. But you knew that!

You live by the letter, you die by the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Revelation and the whole Bible is fully of symbols and double meanings only the Holy Spirit reveals.  Yeshua continually pointed to what was meant, not what the Pharisees said they thought it meant:  Mt 5:22,28,32,34,39,44; 11:22,24; 12:6,36; 17:12; 26:29; Mr 9:13; Lu 6:27; 10:12.

[PaulKersey]

Bump to Lost Tribe.

[onedoug]

I thought you might find this link interesting, as I'd been thinking of this a little, since.

Some reservation might ride on the Jewish expectation that the messianic era would usher a spirit of unfettered goodwill and unity into humankind, which certainly does not seem to have followed The Christ. Most of jewery would seem to argue that the "job description" of mesheach is not fulfilled by Yeshua. Though probably as many would agree that he certainly seemed a talented rabbi.

Given that much of Jewish theology discusses the continued work of humanity toward these ends of its perfection, even in a post-messianic era...I frankly become a little confused.

...Which is why I've flagged you, RP2. You helped me with some really perceptive interpretations in a thread of Jesus and the Gerasene Swine that I'd posted about a year or so ago. I'd sure be interested in your take on some of this stuff.

Thanks, and Best Always to You, both.

[onedoug]

Any of y'all for a stab at #71?

Thanks again, crystalk for the swell thread.

[MissAmericanPie]

I use to have chats with Rabbi's, not actually with the Rabbi, I don't think they speak to Christians, but I would comment, one of the students would ask him, and he would answer the student.

They loved me because I loved them so much, and they wanted to find some way to convert me. They wanted to help me. I understand their view, for thousands of years they have done one thing perfectly, kept the Torah word for word. To them it is their history, and their revelation of the view God allowed them to have of Himself. Now as far as they can see, we Christians are not only messing with their history, we have a different view of God. We know we have a more complete view, they see it as a false view. Everything they are tells them to flee what they see as apostesy. Imagine that your view of God was limited to the first five books of the bible.

To them we are a terrible problem. That didn't make me love them less, and their attitude towards my Christianity will never effect my attitude towards them, they are my babies, my lambs.

I never preached or tried to convert, we discussed the written word and came to an understanding of the difference between Christians and Jews. Jews see the Torah as their history and the laws given to them by God. When a Christian reads the Torah, it is with Spiritual eyes that have been opened by the Spirit of God, which opens a whole panorama of prophecy, insights into God's plan, and where we will be eons from now.

To the Rabbi, intrusted with such a holy commandment to keep the Torah pure, we are a very big, confusing, irritating, foolish, problem, dangerous in their mind, to the future of the Torah, we are nothing more than spiritualists, not a good thing as spiritualism to them is idolatry.

Jesus said, I came to my own, and they did not know me. They will not know us either until God allows, He says they are blinded for our sakes, that makes me very tender hearted towards them. I say, how about a little understanding and forgiveness for where they are coming from.

[cookcounty]

". Most of jewery would seem to argue that the "job description" of mesheach is not fulfilled by Yeshua. Though probably as many would agree that he certainly seemed a talented rabbi."

Of course, from the christian side, the rabbis in one sense are correct. But that is because they see a single appearance of Messiah, while the christians posit 2 "comings." The prophets paint 2 different pictures of Messiah, one as "suffering servant," the other as "conquering King." To solve this, The rabbis, post Targum, increasingly interpreted the "suffering servant" as not referring to Messiah, but rather to the people of Israel. For example, Isaiah 52-53 is interpreted as speaking of the sufferings of the Jewish people.

In the christian view, Messiah, in his first coming, was the "lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" by his self-sacrifice. The "second coming"--the coming in triumph to judge and rule, still lies in the (hopefully near) future.

[PaulKersey]

Isaiah 52-53 is interpreted as speaking of the sufferings of the Jewish people.

It reads more like it was speaking of the Israelites than the Jews.  I don't think there were any Jews in Egypt, and the Assyrians oppressed the northern kingdom, not the south.

excerpt from Isaiah 52-53
             "My people went down at first
             Into Egypt to dwell there;
             Then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
             Now therefore, what have I here," says the LORD,
             "That My people are taken away for nothing?
             Those who rule over them
             Make them wail," says the LORD,
             "And My name is blasphemed continually every day.
             Therefore My people shall know My name;
             Therefore they shall know in that day
             That I am He who speaks:
             "Behold, it is I."'

[onedoug]

Everything would seem "two-fold", in the sense of origination and fulfilment. Though I can personally see it in the Hebrew view of original sin to the messianic anticipation yet unrealized, than I can in the Christian aspect, itself originating in The Garden, leading to the fulfillment of Christ, though with now the anticipation of even a third sense of getting it right.

Hmmm. There's a single, double...and then a triple meaning in that. Constant tweaking?

[BlackVeil]

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. [ 7:14 [ Immanuel ] means [ God with us ] .

Sorry if this is a simplistic question - but - wasn't His Name Jesus? Also known as the Christ? How is that verse interpreted?

[onedoug]

Care to comment on #50?

Thanks.

[FreedomSurge]

A great many Jews think of this process of conversion as "A SECOND HOLOCAUST".

Christians should think about what the Jews really think of them.

[onedoug]

Judaism's core of the good regardless of any expectation of reward has stood well across the centuries, despite, among other things, the need(?) for salvation of "everlasting life". Whereas leading a decent life merely for God's sake is not even enough, as the true tragedy in dying, is in not being able to continue doing good.