Famed Harvard Biologist Gould Dies

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20020520/ap_on_re_us/obit_gould ^ | 5/20/02 | yahoo

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[JediGirl]

Gould was NOT a "decent" man. Decent men or women do not appoint themselves spokesmen for a large branch of science and then input to this science their narrow, commie-based beliefs. He was a phony along with his media-based enablers.

When all else fails, call beliefs you disagree with or have little knowledge of "commie-based"

[general_re]

God can do anything that is good and logically possible.

IOW, he cannot do yet some other thing, and he is therefore still not omnipotent. This strikes me a simply your personal a posteriori requirement, that he can only do certain things and not others.

Regardless, if I accept the truth of this assertion, why assume that God must be consistent and logical in a manner that is evident to us? Surely if God is beyond our ken, then he can act in logical and consistent ways that are simply too subtle and complex for us to understand their logical consistency, don't you think?

But the assertion that God can change is contradictory and therefore meaningless . Your assertion (really a meaningless group of words) does not rise to the level of being an assertion and therefore does not logically warrant refutation.

And yet, here you are. ;)

Speculation about God changing is simply a category error.

And what sort of error is it when Aquinasfan speculates that God can only act in ways that are understandable and logically consistent to Aquinasfan?

[Pharmboy]

You should stick to Star Wars. YOU are the one who knows not of what they speak.

Gould was a self-admitted communist ("I learned it at grandpa's knee"). I am a biologist who has had beers with Gould.

[BMCDA]

It will indeed be interesting forever. You are looking at it from your limited finite mortal human point of view. We humans are so linear ( :-) ) When believers are transformed, they will be given new bodies and they will be made perfect in Christ. There will be no more tears, sorrow, pain, boredom or anything that relates to the fallen nature of this world and this mortal life.

See, that's my problem. You are changed extremely to not feel bored. The mind of an intelligent being wants to be challenged in order to not feel bored so whatever is done to your mind is not necessarily an enhancement.
It's similar to what happens to people after their brains are damaged in a certain way. They don't feel bored anymore since everything is new to them because after some time they simply forget what they just experienced. So for instance they can watch a movie again and again without feeling bored.

You claim that they are made perfect in Christ but this in no way explains how exactly your mind is changed and therefore it's just a meaningless phrase IMO. Oh, I know, you're altered in a way so you don't feel any boredom anymore. But there it is again this meaningless "in a way".

[Junior]

IOW, he cannot do yet some other thing, and he is therefore still not omnipotent.

If this is taken at face value, then man is capable of doing things God cannot, which opens a whole new can of worms.

[general_re]

I'll come back to #634 a bit later, if you don't mind - I'm on a roll here ;)

Power can only do what power can do.

IOW, "perfect is as perfect does" - if an omnipotent God exists, He is ultimately self-defining, and it is the height of foolishness for us to presume to tell God what He can and cannot do, and how He must and must not behave, or to assume same about Him. All we can really know is what is implied by the notion of omnipotence - He can do anything He likes, no matter what we happen to think about it.

Excellent - once again, you cut right to the heart of things. I was sort of hoping that someone would be clever enough to find this particular exit door. I have no real refutation to this point, only my own slight addition outlined above. Well said.

[JediGirl]

Gould's being a communist does not invalidate his scientific findings.

[general_re]

If this is taken at face value, then man is capable of doing things God cannot, which opens a whole new can of worms.

Very interesting - quite a conundrum.

[PatrickHenry]

Placemarker

[general_re]

If he says you are immoral, you can rest assured he has cast his immutable judgement upon you.

Please don't tell me I have to take on the proposition that gore3000's pronouncements are immutable also...

[exmarine]

Again, you are a mere man - made of dust. How can you possibly understand the mechanisms of immortality? They rae beyond your comprehension. If God says you will be transformed so that you are made perfect, then you can believe it.

However, there is one very big caveat...you must be born again. The bible says that the moment you believe, you become a "a new creation" and that "all things become new". I can personally testify that this is true. Being a believer and disciple of my Creator who is the author and sustainer of this universe is certainly not boring. But you can't know this until you have discovered it. Why don't you come to God on His terms and see what transformation takes place?

[longshadow]

Please don't tell me I have to take on the proposition that gore3000's pronouncements are immutable also...

But they are; just ask him about "Wildly elliptical" planetary orbits and 1⁷²⁰.....

;-)

[Pharmboy]

I did not say his leftist ideology invalidated his findings; it would be his interpretations and his communications about his and others' findings.

This is what ticks me off so much about him: he and his commie Harvard buddy Richard Lewontin were the ones who started the petition at Harvard about Wilson's Sociobiology. You could look it up. Science and politics do not mix (please see other posts in this thread that deal with Gould's hypocrisy). Again, when you set yourself up to be the offical arbiter of scientific information, you better be consistent and apolitical. He was neither--and certainly smart enough to know better; but, as a true lefty, it was ok for him to leave out or distrot any facts that got in the way of his agenda.

[JediGirl]

. I can personally testify that this is true. Being a believer and disciple of my Creator who is the author and sustainer of this universe is certainly not boring. But you can't know this until you have discovered it. Why don't you come to God on His terms and see what transformation takes place?

A Buddhist could say the same.

[exmarine]

Well, it seems to me that whether he can and whether he would are really two separate questions. I tend to think that omnipotence should be taken at face value, and that therefore He could say such a thing. However, I freely admit that there's no particular reason to believe that He would do such a thing.

See, the problem is that you are going by your own perceptions and feelings rather than objective facts about God that are clearly presented in the Bible which was authored by God through men. the Bible says that God cannot sin - to say adultery is okay is to sin. Therefore, this is clearly impossible.

Clearly gore3000 is wrong. You labeled it right - assertions - unfounded ones at that. Which is most trustworthy - the bible or someone's contrary biased opinion? To me, the answer is clear.

[JediGirl]

We could sit about and debate the nature of God all day long and accomplish nothing more than the simple establishment of this: God cannot sin because he is God, Because he is God he cannot sin, He can't sin because the Bible says he can't sin, the Bible is the established word of God.

[Aquinasfan]

IOW, he cannot do yet some other thing, and he is therefore still not omnipotent. This strikes me a simply your personal a posteriori requirement, that he can only do certain things and not others.

But it's not. It just strikes you that way. Can God make a yellow pink? Think about it.

Regardless, if I accept the truth of this assertion, why assume that God must be consistent and logical in a manner that is evident to us?

Certainly God "thinks" higher thoughts than we do. But He cannot contradict first principles of reason that are knowable with certainty by the human mind (i.e., that the good should be done and evil avoided, the law of non-contradiction, etc). Why? Because He is the author of the eternal principles of Reason. In contradicting Reason He would be contradicting Himself, which is an impossibility.

Surely if God is beyond our ken, then he can act in logical and consistent ways that are simply too subtle and complex for us to understand their logical consistency, don't you think?

Yes. But that doesn't mean that He can be illogical. For example, God can reveal to us "super-logical" truths like the existence of the Trinity that are not accessible by unaided reason, but he "can't" make a yellow pink.

[Diamond]

Thank you for the compliment, but I'm not that clever. You know how some people can come up with a snappy answer right on the spot while some people think of a good comeback on the way home? Me? It takes me decades:^)

Cordially,

[Aquinasfan]

A Buddhist could say the same.

You're right. That's why a systematic, philosophical defense of Christianity is necessary. I highly recommend Handbook of Christian Apologetics. There is only one truth.