van den Haag observes libertarianism

The National Review (via Potowmack Institute) ^ | June 8, 1979 | Ernest van den Haag

[Roscoe]

"Society" does not have rights.

As surely as a dog returns to its vomit, those who despise our societal traditions regurgitate that bit of fanaticism.

[OWK]

"It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816. FE 10:68

[OWK]

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789.

[Libertarian Billy Graham]

roscoe-ized version of Hayek quote:

The [Right of Society] is an artifact of civilization made possible by the gradual evolution of discipline [which] protects [Society not the individual] by impersonal abstract rules against arbitrary violence...

Didn't you know that non-libertarians like Hayek value the Right of Society as our most valued governmental tradition?

Funnier yet, was the Roscoe-bot's instinctive "frothing at the mouth" accusation in response to the trigger words "collectivist creed"--though the words were Hayek's.

[Roscoe]

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot.

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." -- Thomas Jefferson

[tpaine]

Yes indeed, we have fixed those "fundamental principles" Jefferson refers to.
--They are fixed in our constitution, which you consistently reject.

- Give it up roscoe, - your communitarian agenda is evident. You are not a conservative.
- Why not go elsewhere to spread your agit-prop?

[Roscoe]

They are fixed in our constitution

And our federal laws, our state laws, our county laws, our city laws, our common laws and traditions.

Read a book.

[tpaine]

Read the constitution. - It trumps our federal laws, our state laws, our county laws, & our city laws.

[Roscoe]

Read the constitution. - It trumps our federal laws, our state laws, our county laws, & our city laws.

It has very little to say about them, feverish sourceless rantings notwithstanding.

[tpaine]

It says enough.
Read the bill of rights and the supremacy clause.

[Alan Chapman]

I see you're on your usual rampage against freedom and limited government.

[Alan Chapman]

ROSCOE ON RIGHTS

Different rights have different sources. The right to swim in a public pool comes from society. (link)

How are rights defined? - Alan Chapman

To the extent such decisions are made matters of legal regulation, the determinations are made by the legislative process subject to judicial review. (link)

We have the right to govern ourselves as a society. (link)

...the public has decided to establish such rights. (link)

The public cannot establish rights. - Demidog

It can and it does...the right to attend its public schools... (link)

Some rights are conferred upon individuals by the public, some aren't. Depends on the right at issue. (link)

Some rights are conferred on individuals by society, some aren't. (link)

The public has established rights for individuals to use public pools. (link)

[A.J.Armitage]

"For Hayek, like Burke, believed that the institutions of freedom he cherished emerged from an undesigned and spontaneous evolutionary process utterly dependent upon the distilled knowledge embedded within inherited traditions and institutions. He was captivated by the wondrous order-within-complexity generated by this suprarational social process and wished to defend it against that rationalistic mentality which refuses to comprehend the significance of tradition and custom."

I have no problem with that. I still want to get rid of pork and economic meddling, cut taxes to levels that would look like nothing to people today, and legalize drugs.

Your "smoking gun" proves nothing.

[A.J.Armitage]

The first group were opponents of royal power. They tended to be Protestant dissenters who opposed the Anglican establishment. Most were Calvinists.

Some of them weren't very libertarian (Oliver Cromwell comes to mind), but the anti-royalist arguments were the most anti-authoritarian of the era. The first to support religious liberty were Whigs. One faction of Whigs, the Levellers, were fully libertarian. They invented modern party organization, and wearing colored ribbons to mean something. They didn't like Cromwell very much.

For the Founders, I direct you to their own writings, particularly Sam Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison.

[Roscoe]

Different rights have different sources.

Good point.

[Roscoe]

I still want to get rid of pork and economic meddling, cut taxes to levels that would look like nothing to people today, and legalize drugs.

No surprise there.

BTW, most of 'em are legal.

[Alan Chapman]

Different rights have different sources.

Maybe is Roscoe's land of make-believe.

[Roscoe]

Where does your right to vote come from?

Where does your right to life come from?

[Tribune7]

Good article