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Living In a Police State
The Oakland Press online ^ | April 24, 2002 | JOHN WISELY and STEPHEN W. HUBER

Posted on 04/25/2002 1:52:14 PM PDT by Just another Joe

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To: VA Advogado
If he's got nothing to hid, the 'innocent citizen' has plenty of time to fix the glitches after they search.

The old "if you've got nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about" has always been a bull***t argument. Constitutional rights shouldn't rest on whether you've got something or nothing to hide. Try telling that to someone who's just had their house torn apart by state agents and all their financial records, computers, etc. carted away.

The main point here is that if the state can hide the underlying reasons for getting a warrant in the first place, the standard of probable cause can very easily be diluted to "a cop's suspicion or hunch". Not that this doesn't already happen quite frequently, but if warrants and their supporting material are kept secret, it makes accountability harder and misapplication for warrants much easier.

As others have said above, if police can convince the judge that a warrant should be sealed to protect a sensitive on-going investigation, as is the current law, that may be appropriate, but an automatic, blanket extension of this to all warrants is indeed a large step toward a police state.

The Patriot Act allows federal agents, upon application to and approval by the judge, to not even inform you if your house, car, business is searched (for 6 months, which can be renewed every 6 months indefinitely). They don't have to tell you what they take or copy, or that they've been there at all. It's all to fight terror...and then drug dealers...and then it may be too time-consuming to get the judge's approval, so let's just make all warrants no-notice warrants, since it will allow law enforcement to act quickly to stop terrorists....then drug dealers...then gun owners...then people who post on conservative web sites....

It is indeed a slippery slope. But then, you've got nothing to hide...do you?

Cheers.

21 posted on 04/25/2002 4:02:54 PM PDT by ssterns
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To: ssterns
"But then, you've got nothing to hide..."

No, he doesn't. He's one of the carrion-eaters perched on the carcass of the American Dream.

He's with the thugs. ;^)

22 posted on 04/25/2002 4:24:42 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: VA Advogado
You better be wearing body armor when they 'knock' on/down your door - otherwise, two taps and you'll be simply another lump on the rug.

Better to not even be there. Better to take them from a distance. They're used to siege tactics, not someone who'll turn the game around on them.

23 posted on 04/25/2002 4:50:52 PM PDT by Noumenon
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To: EODGUY
If they don't have to show you a copy of the warrant, how can you verify that they are at the correct address? That's a problem with the BATF, a big problem!
24 posted on 04/25/2002 4:53:49 PM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: spunkets
I didn't even't notice this, and my guard is up. I'm gonna go take a look at this bill, and then next time I see my state rep and state senator(I know both personally), we're gonna have a little talk.

I wish I knew about it earlier, since I talked to my state senator already today.

25 posted on 04/25/2002 4:55:10 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: Just another Joe
780.654 Search warrant; direction of warrant; contents; order to suppress affidavit.

Sec. 4. (1) A search warrant shall be directed to the sheriff or any peace officer, commanding the sheriff or peace officer to search the house, building, or other location or place, where any property or other thing for which the sheriff or peace officer is required to search is believed to be concealed. Each warrant shall designate and describe the house or building or other location or place to be searched and the property or thing to be seized.

(2) The warrant shall either state the grounds or the probable or reasonable cause for its issuance or shall have attached to it a copy of the affidavit.

(3) Upon a showing that it is necessary to protect an ongoing investigation or the privacy or safety of a victim or witness, the magistrate may order that the affidavit be suppressed and not be given to the person whose property was seized or whose premises were searched until that person is charged with a crime or named as a claimant in a civil forfeiture proceeding involving evidence seized as a result of the search.

History: 1966, Act 189, Eff. Mar. 10, 1967 ;--Am. 2002, Act 112, Eff. Apr. 22, 2002 . ------------

780.655 Property seized upon search; tabulation; filing; custody; restoration to owner; disposition of other property.

Sec. 5. (1) When an officer in the execution of a search warrant finds any property or seizes any of the other things for which a search warrant is allowed by this act, the officer, in the presence of the person from whose possession or premises the property or thing was taken, if present, or in the presence of at least 1 other person, shall make a complete and accurate tabulation of the property and things that were seized. The officer taking property or other things under the warrant shall give to the person from whom or from whose premises the property was taken a copy of the warrant and shall give to the person a copy of the tabulation upon completion, or shall leave a copy of the warrant and tabulation at the place from which the property or thing was taken. The officer is not required to give a copy of the affidavit to that person or to leave a copy of the affidavit at the place from which the property or thing was taken.

(2) The officer shall file the tabulation promptly with the court or magistrate. The tabulation may be suppressed by order of the court until the final disposition of the case unless otherwise ordered. The property and things that were seized shall be safely kept by the officer so long as necessary for the purpose of being produced or used as evidence in any trial.

(3) As soon as practicable, stolen or embezzled property shall be restored to the owner of the property. Other things seized under the warrant shall be disposed of under direction of the court or magistrate, except that money and other useful property shall be turned over to the state, county or municipality, the officers of which seized the property under the warrant. Money turned over to the state, county, or municipality shall be credited to the general fund of the state, county, or municipality.

History: 1966, Act 189, Eff. Mar. 10, 1967 ;--Am. 2002, Act 112, Eff. Apr. 22, 2002 .

26 posted on 04/25/2002 5:09:51 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: ssterns
But then, you've got nothing to hide...do you?

Nope, not at all.

27 posted on 04/25/2002 5:15:02 PM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: Dan from Michigan
They may have had good intentions to address complaints of liberal judges causing problems and that it's bothersome to have to come up with sufficient justification. Surely they should know that blanket secrecy like this allows abuse without possibility of scrutiny by those concerned with whatever matter might occur.

"Believe me, if there were to occur abuse of this, I'm sure it would be relooked," Cassis said."

This reminds me of my bro, who changes lanes then turns and looks. LOL!

28 posted on 04/25/2002 6:37:05 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: freeeee
Shirley Johnson is a RINO worse than most democrats. I'm suprised at Nancy Cassis backing this. She's USUALLY conservative. Bullard suprised me as well.
29 posted on 04/25/2002 6:40:50 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: VA Advogado
That's why you install command detonated land mines, (hint, bury then atop the water lines, so metal detectors lose them... and they thought it was a sprinkler system), holly hedges, planted next to the house, and keep a very low local profile...
30 posted on 04/25/2002 7:35:03 PM PDT by jonascord
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To: B4Ranch
Once the search warrant has been executed and entry has been made, the officer in charge can answer that question for the citizen inquiring. If the wrong address is entered, the person who owns, leases or has standing in that property has the option to sue the law enforcement agency involved.

In my opinion, such an occurrence is not only rare, but is always the result of poor intelligence, poor tactical planning, pressure from department hierarchy or just pathetic detective work. None of these are acceptable.

All I can tell you is that I was involved in over 300 search warrants and never entered the wrong home/apartment.

EODGUY

31 posted on 04/26/2002 4:24:00 AM PDT by EODGUY
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To: EODGUY
At the Las Vegas Gun Show the 2nd in command of the BATF told me that wrong addresses were a problem. He sloughed it off saying when he was with the DC police it happened all the time. We were discussing the bad reputation of the BATF. I don't recall the mans name, wish I did.
32 posted on 04/26/2002 4:36:37 AM PDT by B4Ranch
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To: Dan from Michigan
If that is the bill I don't see what the big deal is.
This is what EODGUY and I have been discussing.
LEAs should have to show cause when they want to suppress an affidavit and NOT just unilaterally suppress all of them.
Something smells around this. (and it ain't cheese) I'm just not sure whether it's the legislature or the reporter's story.
33 posted on 04/26/2002 6:07:57 AM PDT by Just another Joe
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To: Just another Joe
That's one of the reasons I want to talk to my state sen Garcia about it. I didn't post the bill since I couldn't find it, but I posted the parts of the law amended from the legislature. The bill amendment current law.

I don't care for this law that much, but it's not a patriot act either.

34 posted on 04/26/2002 7:37:59 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: Dan from Michigan
Here's what I could find on the SLB.

Public Act 112:...CRIMINAL PROCEDURE; Search and seizure; search warrant affidavits; revise procedures.
(Sen. S. Johnson)

Public Act 128:...CRIMINAL PROCEDURE; Search and seizure; search warrant affidavits; declare to be nonpublic information.
(Rep. S. Caul)

And whatever it means they were both "tie bar"

35 posted on 04/26/2002 7:54:20 AM PDT by Just another Joe
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To: DH
Republicans voted for this law.
36 posted on 04/26/2002 8:06:31 AM PDT by Melinator
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To: EODGUY
Sorry, but wasn't this legislation passed for the purposes of the ostensible War against Terror (tm)? Why do you think that it should be ok to use in the War for Drug Warrior Employment? Have you ever heard the phrase "abuse of process"?
37 posted on 04/26/2002 8:10:42 AM PDT by Melinator
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To: Dan from Michigan
My condolences to your state.
38 posted on 04/26/2002 8:12:52 AM PDT by freeeee
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To: VA Advogado
Sorry, but I think you do have something to hide. Wasn't it you who advocates police poisoning and distributing lethally poisoned drugs to our children? I think that makes you a terrorist.
39 posted on 04/26/2002 8:18:18 AM PDT by Melinator
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To: Melinator
"Have you ever heard the phrase "abuse of process"?

Have you ever heard of law enforcement officers following the law to the letter? I have and did.

As I've said previously, incompetent, intentionally criminal abuse of power or process by law enforcement should be dealt with swiftly and severely.

I won't waste bandwidth on an explanation of the seizure/forfeiture process, unless someone who wants to know the truth inquires.

40 posted on 04/26/2002 9:32:39 AM PDT by EODGUY
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