Allowing priests to marry would stop a lot of these kinds of cartoons.
Posted on 03/20/2002 6:21:24 AM PST by meandog
Speak for yourself. I currently have a woman rector who is one of the kindest, loving priests (not priestess) I've ever knwon, and the best sermon givers I ever heard...afterall, was it not a woman who Christ first appeared?
Allowing priests to marry would stop a lot of these kinds of cartoons.
Often, priest who don't work out are the fault of the seach committee/bishop who sought them...I agree that the Church is very liberal in her philosophy, however, I have known many feminist Episcopalians who keep their political agenda to themselves when in Church. The way to keep the Church sound is to get nominated to your state General Conventions and FIGHT for conservative Christian positions. The Church realizes she cannot dictate the Bishop Sprong types to her congregations because there would be mass exodus...probably to the Lutherans, and perhaps even to the legions of Romans, God forbid!
Given your litany of allegations, there's no doubt in my mind whatsoever they're doing things right! If you knew anything at all other than what the biased, liberal, christian-hating media has fed down the sheeples' throats, you'd know that what you speak of is false. BJU doesn't answer to the beat of the liberal drum in this country...that's why it's so easy to label the university as racist, anti-semitic, anti-whatever...simply put, you know NOT what you speak of.
This is all being used as a stick by liberals to try to force just those two things (ending celibacy and adding women priests). Neither will help. The abuse rates in non-celibate Protestant Churches are just as high as they are in the Catholic Church. Celibacy is not the cause, it’s just the whipping boy. This article is just another in a long line of hit pieces trying to force change.The only way for the priesthood to regain it's authority and it may take a generation, is to exclude all except emotionally stable heterosexual men.What about ending the ban on celibacy (incidentally, do you realize that the Roman Catholic Church already has a few married priests?)
Change is needed in how the Church handles abusers. It is not needed in who is eligible for Holy Orders.
patent +AMDG
patent
is that half the clergy is gay and a lot of them are chickenhawking among those vulnerable kids.B.S. There is no credible evidence that anything close to half the clergy is gay. The rate of abuse in the Church is less then 2%, at least according to most reliable studies, plaintiff’s expert witnesses aside.
patent +AMDG
priesthood seems to be teeming with homosexual pedophiles.Its not. Its rates are no higher then anywhere else. In Chicago a survey of 2,400 priest’s files found only one accused of pedophilia.
I'm thinking of looking into the Eastern Orthodox Churches...they seem to have their #%$@ together.Their abuse rates are no different. There just aren't as many of them in this country to hear about.
patent
I don't know what "respected theologian" means,If the mainstream media uses it, it means heretic.
Historically changes take place slowly in the Catholic Church which prevents the Church from going PC. I suspect the much needed policy changes in handling abusers will be swift. The rest of the changes will occur in the correct time. The other issues can wait.
So we should change because the cartoonists say so? I know your desparate I know your desperate to strip away Catholics, but that’s pretty weak.
patent +AMDG
That is the real issue!
Thank you eno_.
All hell suddenly broke loose and Mark Shields merely followed his peers.
Thanks for the brilliant post.
As far as I'm concerned some elements of the Southern Baptist tradition are no better than Muslim extremists--they're like so much of America's "cults" plaguing religion and entirely miss the point of Christ's mission for His universal Church. And, considering all I know about the current Roman Catholic crisis, at least the Mother Church of all Christianity got it right about was Jesus is!
As far as I'm concerned some elements of the Southern Baptist tradition are no better than Muslim extremists--they're like so much of America's "cults" plaguing religion and entirely miss the point of Christ's mission for His universal Church. And, considering all I know about the current Roman Catholic crisis, at least the Mother Church of all Christianity got it right about was Jesus is!
Did he also tell you about the baby blue and pink sidewalks? (he!he!he!) OH PULLEASE! That (the foot-long rule), along with so many other falsehoods, are nothing but "urban legends" about BJU. But what is true about BJU is that they do have a strict code of conduct, and go to great lengths to instill a strong sense of purity and virtue in their young people. Yes, to a great degree, you can say they are pious, but only in that they are unapologetic in their devotion to the cause of Christ and in demonstrating reverence towards God in all aspects of life, and they teach this and expect it from the students as well.
There was also absolutely no such thing as academic or any other freedom of self-expression tolerated.
Regarding academic freedom, I can't speak for what was happening at the university in the late 1960's, but as for today, BJU's 5000+ students are enrolled in 100+ undergraduate majors ranging from Accounting, Nursing, Education, Music, to various "Pre-professional" majors including Law, Medical, Dental, Veterinary Medicine, Physical Therapy, to other majors including an excellent Criminal Justice major, Aviation, various Foreign Languages, Management disciplines, and even a major in Home Economics...not to mention the numerous majors that deal with Biblical/Pastoral studies, Religion, Missions, and the overall work of the Ministry of Christ's "church." BJU also has 14 Associate Degree programs, and about 75 Graduate programs mainly focusing on all aspects of Music, Biblical/Religious/Church History Studies, secondary Education, and the Ministry. BJU graduates are not only sought after to fill positions of leadership, trust and responsibility at major corporations throughout the U.S., they are also accepted at many of the top graduate schools throughout the country in law, medical, dental, and veterinary medicine programs.
Regarding "freedom of self-expression," young people who CHOOSE to go to BJU do so with the knowledge and understanding that they are there for a purpose--not just for academic learning but more importantly, they are there to learn "how to live." They are willing to submit to the authority over them, that there's a purpose for the way everything is carried out in a systematic, orderly manner. To say there is no freedom of "self-expression" is not correct. If you mean that there is no freedom to dress like a slob and show up for classes whenever you feel like it, or to criticize those in authority over you, well, then you're right...there is no freedom from that standpoint. However, the same can be said for those in the military as well. Freedom of "self-expression" amongst military personnel is constrained as well, and there's a reason for that. Success, accomplishment, leadership and responsibility all derive from self-sacrifice, discipline, obedience, teamwork, and a mindset toward service. The same is true for BJU students and graduates. You could say that Bob Jones University is the "military" of christian colleges/universities. And you know something? There's absolutely nothing in this world wrong with that. If one wants total, complete freedom of self-expression, they are more than welcome to pursue it at any one of a countless numbers of schools across this country. No one is forced to go to BJU. No one is forced to stay once they are there.
As far as I'm concerned some elements of the Southern Baptist tradition are no better than Muslim extremists--they're like so much of America's "cults" plaguing religion.
First of all, Bob Jones University is not a church, nor is it affiliated with any one particular denomination of churches, including the Southern Baptist Convention, and it's anything BUT a (laughable!) cult.
Bob Jones University is just that: an institution of higher learning with a mission that: "Within the cultural and academic soil of liberal arts education, exists to grow Christlike character that is Scripturally disciplined; others-serving; God-loving; Christ-proclaiming; and focused above." The entire essence of BJU can be found in its creed: believing in the inspiration of the Bible (both the Old and the New Testaments); the creation of man by the direct act of God; the incarnation and virgin birth of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; His identification as the Son of God; His vicarious atonement for the sins of mankind by the shedding of His blood on the cross; the resurrection of His body from the tomb; His power to save men from sin; the new birth through the regeneration by the Holy Spirit; and the gift of eternal life by the grace of God. For this, they make no apology whatsoever. And they are equipping countless numbers of young people to become decent, law-abiding, responsible, patriotic citizens to carry the love of Christ throughout the U.S. and into the world through all facets of life.
And just one more thing before I go, Bob Jones University did not "nearly cost" George W. Bush the presidency, George W. Bush nearly cost himself the presidency and the liberal, biased, anti-christian media was doing everything it could to help him. BJU, like the rest of this country and world, is not a perfect place. For the cause of Christ, the university, too, has been willing and ready to remedy its shortcomings, not just in recent years, but all throughout its 75 year history, putting confession and repentance before arrogance and pride. Like 7-UP -- the "UN-cola" -- BJU is definitely the "UN-university." In fact, it is commonly referred to as: "the world's most UNusual university." Oh that the rest of us could only follow their example...what an absolutely, incredibly better place this world would be.
BJU is not my alma mater. However, my son is a 4th year student there. I don't dispute the rest of what you say, except that through my own investigation and understanding of (having heard) the same allegations against Dr. Bob Jones (founder of the university), I believe that certain statements he made were taken out of context. For example, regarding his supposed labeling of the pope as "the anti-Christ." I firmly believe the man's contention was that in his interpretation of scripture, the "anti-Christ" would come from/out of a revised Roman Empire and that the catholic church would be instrumental in the rise of said Roman Empire. Therefore, anyone could make the claim that he was labeling the pope as the anti-Christ. Also, there's nothing secret about the emnity between the Protestant and Catholic faiths with regard to the Holy scriptures. Look at what the Protestant Reformation brought to western culture/societies. Dr. Bob Jones wasn't and still isn't the only one who believed as he...he was obviously more vocal about it and then condemned for espousing his beliefs.
About the Jews and Israel, again, I have no doubt that he was often quoted out of context. He wrote many books and point papers expressing his views; given a minimal amount of research and study, one can find a clear-cut representation of his views with regard to the Jews, and as far as I'm concerned, they are not anti-Jewish nor anti-Semetic; they come from a heart-felt conviction of what the biblical Jewish nation has come to represent and God's purpose for the nation of Israel. Like every other race/nation of people, the Jewish nation has good men and bad men, evil people and kind-hearted people, and are thus capable of doing mighty and great acts, as well as much evil. If someone or a group disagrees with the Jews or Israel, or some such, why are they automatically labeled anti-Jewish or an anti-Semite? I'd really like to know. We (people in general) critize the leadership in this country, we critize other individuals and groups of people about what goes on all across this country, yet does that automatically make us anti-Americans or anti-USA? Certainly not. Again, it's much too easy for us to assume that he made certain comments and to assume that whatever is written in (the news media) print is truth. Even your claim is that he "supposedly told associates..." I cannot vouch for what he said or did not say "on the record," but I am confident in that what I've learned and read about him, he was definitely not anti-Jewish/anti-Semetic.
With regard to being anti-African/American, he may very well have been. I don't know; I wasn't there. And yes, I believe you are right about BJU being the last institution in SC to integrate in the late 60's/early 70's. I cannot defend nor condemn the university's actions up to/during that time...I have had discussions about this particular issue with some individuals who are quite knowledgeable about the university and its history, keeping in mind the fact that this is a religious school established by those who lived, believed and held core convictions in line with how they interpreted scripture and how they viewed their existence based on what God's word said and not the dictates of man. I will say, though, that I can only judge the university on where it is today, on what's happening there now (at least in recent years), and I am very comfortable with their positions and the core convictions of which they now hold. Also, the entire university cannot/should not be judged by how it operated 30+ years ago. It's different today, and there is so much good coming from there that should never be overshadowed by the mistakes/shortcomings of the past.
It is a real shame, and so very unforunate for those ignorant about the university, that all most people hear is "racist, bigotted, anti-this, anti-that, intolerant, etc." and, frankly, entirely based on its demonization by the media, just because President Bush made an appearance there, which was done ONLY to discredit him during the primaries, propelled by none other than John McCain's campaign (the darling of the media), all at the expense of the university, its faculty, staff, students, graduates, etc.
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