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Down with Evolution! Creationists changing state educational standards
Scientific American ^ | March 2002 issue | RODGER DOYLE

Posted on 02/12/2002 12:24:57 PM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: RightWhale
Demand that the three Rs be taught.

I'm with you here

Demand that the emphasis on team sports be reduced. Demand that students not be allowed cars and don't provide parking for them.

Ok, I'm not sure why demanding this is a good thing? Could you please expand?

41 posted on 02/12/2002 4:00:02 PM PST by realpatriot71
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To: longshadow
I propose an alternative: everbody who thinks Creation Myths are important gets up an hour early and takes their children to the house of worship of their choice, after which the kids go to school to learn history, English, science, grammar, reading, social studies, Mathematics, etc.

BINGO! That was easy wasn't it?

42 posted on 02/12/2002 4:01:04 PM PST by realpatriot71
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To: realpatriot71
BINGO! That was easy wasn't it?

I had a feeling you might agree. ;-)

43 posted on 02/12/2002 4:04:13 PM PST by longshadow
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To: headsonpikes
It's just a lot of smarty-pants nerds who are so stuck on the ridiculous 3.1416.blahblahblah that are opposed.

Sure. It doesn't matter that pi is the ratio of the circumfrence to the diameter at all. Everything will still work, trust me.

44 posted on 02/12/2002 4:09:13 PM PST by AUgrad
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To: realpatriot71
Team sports and cars distract from studies.

Another thing about team sports is the saying that 'there is no I in team,' when it very much an individual thing. Sports, especially football in high school and college teach many things, but should be reserved for those who are doing very well in the three Rs. De-emphasize sports, emphasize scholastics. De-emphasize cars, emphasize studies. Teach science as the cool thing, not having a 4x4 as being cool. How cool would it be if American schoolkids placed in the top 10 scholastically in the world? Sweet.

45 posted on 02/12/2002 4:16:03 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: AUgrad
"...trust me."

That's right! Everything will still work.

Dang politicians are in the pocket of the fat textbook lobby!

You can learn lots just by staying awake.

46 posted on 02/12/2002 4:20:59 PM PST by headsonpikes
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To: VadeRetro
This is not the same as saying that the laws of physics forbid toasters except by design. Which laws? What part of nature is checking to make sure that a designer is operating? All you can honestly say is that it's hard to imagine a scenario whereby a toaster just happens.

If you assume the universe to be infinite (as far as anyone can tell, it is), then you have to understand a few mathematical concepts. Most people don't take the time to ponder the meaning of "infinity". Everyone has heard the example of an infinite number of monkeys sitting in front of an infinite number of typewriters. You'll eventually get a Shakespearian play right? Well that analogy doesn't go far enough. What you would actually get would be an infinite number of copies of everything that ever had or ever could be written. So if the universe is infinite, everything that can possibly happen, will, an infinite number of times(thus,you get your toaster). That brings us back to our original premise. Is the universe infinite? Good question.

47 posted on 02/12/2002 4:24:47 PM PST by AUgrad
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To: VadeRetro
Entropy decreases happen locally all the time on earth. Many are undesigned.

Thus, diamonds.

48 posted on 02/12/2002 4:26:49 PM PST by AUgrad
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To: headsonpikes
Of course you might get tired of riding on oval tires.
49 posted on 02/12/2002 4:29:36 PM PST by AUgrad
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To: realpatriot71
My answer was tounge-in-cheek, speeking to the rediculousness of teaching creation in school.

Sorry. Your name threw me off. So far, everyone with the word "patriot" in his name has been a total whack-job. Except for you.

50 posted on 02/12/2002 4:32:03 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Shamelessly bumping my own thread.
51 posted on 02/12/2002 4:44:05 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: AUgrad
Is the universe infinite?

I hope not. If your analysis is correct, we'd not only get an infinity of toasters, but an infinity of Hillary Clintons, an infinity of Barney Frankses . . .

It's too horrible to contemplate.

52 posted on 02/12/2002 5:02:52 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: AUgrad
If you assume the universe to be infinite (as far as anyone can tell, it is),

Fred Hoyle, rest his soul, would have loved you.

53 posted on 02/12/2002 5:16:46 PM PST by AndrewC
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To: Barak
The really big lie which is being promulgated by the evos is that the dialectic is between evolution and religion. That's BS. In order to have a meaningful dialectic between evolution and religion, you would need a religion which operated on an intellectual level similar to that of evolution, so that the debate would be between the evolutionists, and the voodoo doctors: Dick Dawkins vs Jr. Doc Duvalier.

But the real dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some expect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, Muhammed...

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A for Adulteror, F for Fornicator or some such traditional design, or or a big scarlet letter I for IDIOT, you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the traditional choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God hates IDIOTS, too!

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could see or hear them, they wouldn't be witches...) The best example of that sort of logic in fact that there ever was was Michael O'Donahue's parody of the Connecticut Yankee (New York Yankee in King Arthur's Court) which showed Reggie looking for a low outside fastball and then getting beaned cold by a high inside one, the people feeling Reggie's wrist for pulse, and Reggie back in Camelot, where they had him bound hand and foot. Some guy was shouting "Damned if e ain't black from ead to foot, if that ain't witchcraft I never saw it!!!", everybody was yelling "Witchcraft Trial!, Witchcraft Trial!!", and they were building a scaffold. Reggie looks at King Arthur and says "Hey man, isn't that just a tad premature, I mean we haven't even had the TRIAL yet!", and Arthur replies "You don't seem to understand, son, the hanging IS the trial; if you survive that, that means you're a witch and we gotta burn ya!!!" Again, that's precisely the sort of logic which goes into Gould's variant of evolutionism, Punk-eek.

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?

54 posted on 02/12/2002 5:53:18 PM PST by medved
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To: VadeRetro
an infinity of toasters, but an infinity of Hillary Clintons, an infinity of Barney Frankses ...

In one of those universes -- perhaps this is the one -- Hillary and Barney are having a clandestine affair ...

55 posted on 02/12/2002 6:03:43 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: PatrickHenry
Serves them both right, too.
56 posted on 02/12/2002 6:14:00 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: stanz
Darwin day? Why am I not surprised.
57 posted on 02/12/2002 6:16:31 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Physicist
Considering things are going quite well here, I am a bit surprised the gods hate us here.....they have funny ways of showing it!

:)

58 posted on 02/12/2002 6:18:53 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: medved
My answer the evolution question is a simple one:

I wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and ask myself one question: Am I designed in the image of God or by chance a monkeys uncle?

Seems like a pretty easy answer to me.

You can not PROVE is either is correct by scientific method.

BTW, great response

59 posted on 02/12/2002 6:20:57 PM PST by JZoback
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To: PatrickHenry
Holy smokes....I agree with you for once. Hell must be like the arctic tundra.
60 posted on 02/12/2002 6:21:02 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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