Posted on 01/05/2002 11:55:52 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
So, I have just made these points again.
If my points are correct and yet you still won't receive them, then can you fault me for my rather gentle but firm stance?
Of course you can't.
Well, then, I will point out to you (again, of course) that pride is a monster. (I can give you zillions of Scriptures on this.) In the next place, the pretense that real evangelicals are soft on abortion is demonstrably false. You can't "stake out" the moral high ground in this. I am already on it with you in this.
The Catholic Church AND the Fundamental Protestants have fought this battle together. You and I ,along with other Fundamentalists on FR are in agreement on the horrors of the "procedure" (ugh) .
But it is disingenuous to lay it at the foot of Protestants. It is Catholic law makers of both parties that have dared to stand in public ,like Pilot and claim clean hands. They have never been held accountable by YOUR church for having the blood of millions on their hands in DIRECT violation of your church doctrine. This is a sin that allows the church to excommunicate them ,instead your leaders turn a blind eye and hold up their hands too. Hypocrisy at the highest levels allow men like the Kennedy's to support abortion openly one minute and go to communion (lets not even talk about the "annullment")and remain a member in good standing.
Studies show a LARGE proportion of abortions are performed on Catholic women .
We can agree there is a culture of death in this nation,and we can agree to try to shed some light into dark corners.But the bottom line is man is a sinner ,and what he wants to do is sin.The government has simply made it easy to kill your own..so that is what unregenerate man will do! To point fingers in this area is not productive ,and works against the unity need to stop the slaughter of the unborn.
I have maintained that real evangelicals are soft on contraception, and that this apostacy in moral theology caused the legalization of abortion. There is a difference. Quite a difference. I hope you can see it and debate it.
Real evangelicals are not soft on abortion.
But until they see that the roots of acceptance of legalized abortion was the change in moral theology teaching by protestantism in 1930, they will never turn back abortion or the homosexual agenda.
By insisting on private interpretation of scripture, they have created this monster of the Culture of Death.
You cannot kill a dandelion without pulling out all its roots.
Real evangelicals who are pro-life yet fail to see the roots of abortion will spend the next millenia popping the heads off dandelions, and deny that dandelions do indeed have roots.
Catholics see the roots, and admit that the plant, which may appear to be a pretty flower, is really a weed that chokes the Culture of Life and must be eliminated from the garden.
But not all of them comprehend the roots of it. Their efforts may be sincere. But that does not mean they are effective.
And their preconceived notions and interpretations may keep them blind from the Truth of what will truly advance the culture of Life, the Culture of Him Who is the Way, the Truth, and the life.
The foundational legal underpinnings of Roe V Wade were from Griswold V Connecticut in 1963. This SCOTUS decision overturned the remainder of the Comstock Laws, by "finding" a woman's right to privacy in our constitution.
these Comstock laws, which forbid the sale of or literature regarding contraceptives, were written by protestant legislators in the 1800's.
It is Catholic and protestant law makers of both parties that have dared to stand in public ,like Pilot and claim clean hands.
At least my Church still has doctrines on contraception and abortion to violate.
And when the Church does excommunicate someone, anti-Catholics always line up to condemn us for such medievil acts. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
So we just ignore said criticism, knowing we're only called to be faithful, we're not called to be successful.
And when the Church does excommunicate someone, anti Catholics always line up to condemn us for such medieval acts. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
So we just ignore said criticism, knowing we're only called to be faithful, we're not called to be successful.
OHHHHHH please this is too weak a response to be worthy of you.My church has an article of faith on abortion.
On the matter of the opinion of men I would refer you and your church to Galations 1
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
If your church fails to use the authority YOU claim is DIRECTLY from Christ you are being directly disobedient to Christ and apostate . That is a weak excuse and you know it. You need to speak the truth and not defend the indefensible
I don't know about Revelation 911's position on this, but most serious evangelicals on FR seem to be apalled by Benny Hinn. And many of us actually regard Benny Hinn not as one of us, but as one of you.
So, we say you don't even understand the larger controversy. Fortunately for you, your bashing of Revelation 911 as a "piece of sh*t" is not at all likely to trigger the use of the abuse button.
But I am going on record that you are being abusive.
(Would that be Pontee-us Pilot or Pontius Pilate? Spell-checkers do fail us sometimes, don't they? [Ha!])
What good is an article of faith against the dandelion flower when there is no article of faith against the dandelion root?
Amazing that Christians refuse to examine the fact their own church fell away on contraception, why, and its consequences. Its like some kind of macombre dance. Lets talk about...justiification/salvation/scripture/listening to men instead of God/luther/the sinfulness of Catholics/....ANYTHING!!!
Lets just not talk about this. Its too uncomfortable. And really Christianity has become a religion of comfort (I feel good, I feel saved, therefore I am saved) and has abandoned its cross.
Get back to me, everyone, when you are willing to discuss the contraception apostacy and its link to the culture of death.
Until then you got some soul searchin' to do.
You know it in your heart. This thread is really bugging you (I've been there myself, I know) but you cannot figure out why. So you gotta attack me and my Church to rationalize your refusal to look in, and confront what you see there.
That's fine. I'm a big proud guy, I'll be happy to be your scape goat, as long as one person sees the Truth presented in this thread and it changes his heart.
As a former Catholic and a mother of 7 I would like to address this issue.When I married most Catholics had fairly large families compared to the norm.. All my neighbors had at least 3 ,most had 5 or more (I had one neighbor with 11)
Birthcontrol pills and "loops" were still fairly "new"....natural family planning not reliable. Most of my Catholic friends used condoms ,or withdrawal not rhythm. I believe that is the only thing that kept most families under the magic 10 or 11 number.
To claim the "moral high ground" on birth control is foolisness. Look around you today. How many Catholic families of 4 or 5 do you see?
I would guess you would like to believe that the pill or sterilization is not a factor, but you do know better than that.
Once again we see the Church making rules that they claim reflect the "law" of God and then fail to follow through with the discipline required by the church.
LOL..I didn't double check..I have a heathan word checker !!
Acceptance of abortifacients as though these are "merely" contraceptives was a mistake. Many evangelicals now recognize that physicians have lied to them about this entire matter. And they are now standing their ground against these lies.
But we reject the Pope's claims that all contraception is wrong in and of itself. So, we don't care where you think this "leads."
That takes us back to the real point of the thread. We Protestants say that the article at the top of the thread is wrong. We say you don't understand faith or grace or spiritual authority or the Person of Christ.
Now, why can't we stay on this topic which you started when you posted the article?
(I suspect that you decided that you have decided to segue this into a discussion of contraception in order to to evade the very serious criticisms which we have of the author's position. You certainly haven't responded with any cogent arguments against my doctrinal complaints.)
Shallow. Fallow. Simple. 3 words that describe your post and your argument.
Lets see the math on this one Einstein.
Does so
Does so
Excuse me??You are the one on the offensive not me!! It was you that in typical "anti Protestant "fashion blamed the entire Abortion mess on Protestants. I do not attack you or the RC Church on your abortion stand.We can walk that picket line together friend. I am merely responding to the " scape goating," you have been doing to the protestants here.
Abortion is a sin issue.It does not belong to any one group it is a sign of mans total depravity. Just as man breaks all moral laws he will break this law too. The solution to that sin is God's grace.
As a Bible believing fundamental Christian I believe that the blood of Christ covers all sin, yes even abortion. The RC Church has a procedure to excommunicate a woman that has had an abortion,a medical person ,or family member that assists in one.How often is that done? Instead I would instead trust the grace of God to do the work no man can do and to bring the woman to repentance. My interest is less in the eternal welfare of the murderous mom (as I see that as God's job not mine)
My interest is not to restrain a woman from sin (impossible) but rather to preserve the life of the innocent infant .
We are not enemies in this fight. for you to lay the blame on Protestants is unworthy of you!
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